possible ECW project using Baroque

[paulr]

Just remembered I need some bits and pieces for a couple of camps

Now more than 1,250 but less than 1,300 figures
and the cost is still only
A couple more special orders for bits for the camp

[pierre the shy]

Looks like your new painting table will be well used in the next few months then 

[toxicpixie]

Thank Fnord you're not doing it in 28mm

[paulr]

28mm is one scale I have never painted

I've started another solo test game and it has become obvious I don't know how to use Reiters in Baroque
So far one unit has been driven off the board by enemy Trotters and another has been badly out shot by a unit of Pike & Muskets

Do any Baroque players have any words of wisdom

[toxicpixie]

Use them as Massed units? They're still a bit rubbish but they can grind the opposition down...

[d_Guy]

Yes Massed would seem right to me also.

That said, although RE are included in the Parliamentarian early war list, I tend toward just using TR instead. When I think of Rieters I think more of TYW were they are massed and using continual pistol fire (caracol) to weaken the opponent before engaging. I can think of a few ECW cases were Caracol was used (or at least attempted) including at Tippermuir but I think it is rare. ( I am hardly an authority, however).

Zippie has much more experience with them, but until he comes along here is a thread about RE at the D&P forum:
http://impetus.ativiforum.com/t878-caracoling-massed-reiters

Hope this helps some.

[paulr]

Thanks d_Guy, that and some of the other threads definitely helped

Can I check I now understand Reiters correctly

Parliamentary Reiters cost 43 points and have the same base stats if massed or not, including VD. The changes if massed are:
- movement 2S rather than 2
- they get MM+2
- they get to fire a second time if they pass the discipline test
- they are on a double depth bases (I'm planning to use two bases rather than have two lots of figures)

Parliament get 2-8 Reiters massed or not...

I was thinking that you combined two Reiters to make a massed Reiter unit

[paulr]

Another thought that has just occurred to me is to base at all the Reiters on double depth bases and use 3 ranks of figures...

This will give me 33% more massed units for the same number of figures, compared to two bases with two ranks
If someone wants to use non-massed Reiters just note the exception...

[d_Guy]

Yes- that seems correct. Both RE and TR are larger but more compact than GA. Deciding to mass them is really more a tactical change than adding a larger number of men. The RE want to bring a sustained fire against a point in the enemy line so they deploy deeper in rank ( rather like the musketeers firing continual volleys by switching out the front rank). the RE don't want to move into contact until they have created a breech. The TR are doing a similar thing but trying to do as much damage with their pistols as they go in, breech or no breech.

I had been using a doubling in a few situations (the first interation of my house rules) but decided back in April to use the "pure" rulesas much as possible. Because I'm now using magnetic sabots I can configure units more easily so I would show an RE (massed) as having a front row of 6 figures (3 bases) and a rear row of the same. (I don't use masses of figures doing 10mm. Treat them as 28mm - easier on the budget - time and money ) a bit heretical I suppose.

In any event putting two units together to indicated massed is a simple visual indicator (particularly since base depth is not important).

I don't (usually) do battles in early war England so I don't feel constrained by the D&P army list.  I use TR in their place since, if they are not massed, they are doing roughly the same thing. I show TR as 4 figure front 4 figures rear. GA is shown as one rank (staggered) of 8 figures.
In cases where I have historically large units, I divide them into two smaller, but independent, units. Seems to work better so far.

The tactic of going in with sword and reserving pistols for use in melee (or pursuit) was winning historically and over the course of the wars it seems to have become the dominate tactic. I will admit that when your Point Blank Pistol fire causes permanent casualties and disorder it is fairly satisfying. The one and only time I tried a caracole it was a miserable failure.

Much still depends on what you are going game. I had said before that army lists set you up well for edgehill until probably Marston Moor, so lots of great action.

Really looking forward to seeing your project come to fruition.
- Bill

[d_Guy]

Sorry,

Was writing a book and missed your new post.

You may want to experiment with how effective the caracol is before deciding on massed RE as default. It might be easier to use a marker to indicate massed. A nice vignette of one fellow fiddling with a spanner while another fumbles in his kit for a third pistol (these are figures for Pendraken to consider  )

[pierre the shy]

Thanks d_Guy, that and some of the other threads definitely helped

Can I check I now understand Reiters correctly

Parliamentary Reiters cost 43 points and have the same base stats if massed or not, including VD. The changes if massed are:
- movement 2S rather than 2
- they get MM+2
- they get to fire a second time if they pass the discipline test
- they are on a double depth bases (I'm planning to use two bases rather than have two lots of figures)
Parliament get 2-8 Reiters massed or not...
I was thinking that you combined two Reiters to make a massed Reiter unit

FWIW I think this is correct Paul, though in our first test game we were looking at Highlanders MM ratings rather than RE. The mass is per base not a combination of several separate bases.

Still inspired to eventually get some proper 3/4 armoured Curaissiers for the Marquis of Argyll's bodyguard, even if their existence is somewhat speculative  - The Covenanters need all the help they can get facing Montrose and friends  

http://wiki.bcw-project.org/covenanter/horse-regiments/marquis-of-argyll-s-lifeguard

[Zippee]

Thanks d_Guy, that and some of the other threads definitely helped

Can I check I now understand Reiters correctly

Parliamentary Reiters cost 43 points and have the same base stats if massed or not, including VD. The changes if massed are:
- movement 2S rather than 2
- they get MM+2
- they get to fire a second time if they pass the discipline test
- they are on a double depth bases (I'm planning to use two bases rather than have two lots of figures)

Parliament get 2-8 Reiters massed or not...

I was thinking that you combined two Reiters to make a massed Reiter unit

A common mistake - probably the most answered question on the Impetus/baroque forums is "are Baroque massed units like Impetus large units" to which the answer is "No (well not really)"

Another common meme is that RE(M) are a broken unit that is overpowerful for it's points - well why would you buy RE instead, the 2S is irrelevant as no-one tries to double move C class troops (well not after their first game anyway  ) so they're a bargain compared to RE but I remain unconvinced they are broken. that said in the ECW you have very limited interactions, the Royalist GA are designed to roll over the RE and TR opposition (unless they are bolstered with hardened, veteran, motivated, etc). On the continent there is more variety and RE may have a better role.

I'll note d_Guy says I know more but I keep repeating ECW is not my thing, I'm no expert I have a wargamer's generalist knowledge, this is a peripheral period for me 

[toxicpixie]

I did note in my solo games that RE(M) do seem overly good assuming you play it slow and steady and don't let them get Disordered by being cocky or sloppy!

Like you I'm not sure they're actively broken, mind.

I have kind of swung to thinking Dragoons are too good - they seem very, VERY shooty compared to a P&M unit, and not much worse at anything else. Perhaps reduce their VBU to 4 would be right?

[Zippee]

It might be easier to use a marker to indicate massed. A nice vignette of one fellow fiddling with a spanner while another fumbles in his kit for a third pistol (these are figures for Pendraken to consider  )

I'd agree - I did all 8 possible RE units from the lists but only bothered with 2 RE(M) units. Either use a dummy sabot base with/without some vignette models, shove two RE bases together or just identify them clearly as massed to your opponent and you're good to go IMO.

You may want to experiment with how effective the caracol is before deciding on massed RE as default.

We already know how effective they are - they're speed bumps to lure the enemy GA off the table, unfortunately while the morale rules and 'withdrawal' options work really, really well there is no actual mechanism to force the GA to follow your withdrawing, err routing RE off the table as they should do.

Remember RE safety - withdrawal before you shoot your load!

[Zippee]

I have kind of swung to thinking Dragoons are too good - they seem very, VERY shooty compared to a P&M unit, and not much worse at anything else. Perhaps reduce their VBU to 4 would be right?

That I would agree with - if they seem shooty compared to PM units that's not good, when they seem more cost effective as a shooty unit than T units that's a design flaw!

Not sure if a flat VBU reduction is the way to go but they need to be nerfed in some way - possibly a hefty MM/SM neg