Master list for the new Korean War range - Input required!

[Leon]

Is the M50 (already done - MDV27) the same hull as the easy 8?

Should be, it's the welded hull with the same suspension setup, but I get a bit lost with all the Sherman variants, so I'll check on Dave where we are with it.

[fsn]

Please, please, please could we use some common sense and ensure that the first ranges are compatible?

For example, if one is the Winter clad Chinese, could they not be paired with South Koreans in t-shirts and flip-flops?  

I know this won't happen, but I've been looking at the voting.

Also please more Burp guns!


Australians

[Matt J]

Isn't Nick Frost in that Aussie photo 

[nikharwood]

Isn't Nick Frost in that Aussie photo 

Haha - nicely spotted

[Sunray]

Please, please, please could we use some common sense and ensure that the first ranges are compatible?

For example, if one is the Winter clad Chinese, could they not be paired with South Koreans in t-shirts and flip-flops?  

I know this won't happen, but I've been looking at the voting.

Too early in the preferendum to call what trends emerging - although I did think the early war Brits would lose out in popularity to the 29th Brigade in their smocks and more modern appearance.    Keep voting Commandos ! Only elite on the table with a 5/30. (1)

I have one hypothesis.  The AFVs - particularly the Centurion - have been out there for a long time.  Many gamers have painted up and based the
tanks .....and waited for the figures.  Are these gamers motivated by figures to compliment the tanks they  already possess ?  The sad news is the CPLA had no armour at the time of their 1950 offensive.  It will be little Chinese men against machines.

Another theory -  The Korean war was popular comic culture in USA. In the 1960s there was a plethora of war comics . I have read a PhD on Charlton and Marvel comics and their treatment of Korea.   Would there be a market for the American figures Stateside ?  The strong $ would make Pendraken very attractive, even with a retailer's margin.

(1) CWC rules for Korea has got a lot of the troop rankings and morale value simply wrong.  I have revised rules for my own gaming.

[pierre the shy]

I have one hypothesis.  The AFVs - particularly the Centurion - have been out there for a long time.  Many gamers have painted up and based the tanks .....and waited for the figures.  Are these gamers motivated by figures to compliment the tanks they  already possess ?  The sad news is the CPLA had no armour at the time of their 1950 offensive. 

Another theory -  The Korean war was popular comic culture in USA. In the 1960s there was a plethora of war comics . I have read a PhD on Charlton and Marvel comics and their treatment of Korea.   Would there be a market for the American figures Stateside ?  The strong $ would make Pendraken very attractive, even with a retailer's margin.

No Armour? borrow someone elses !    I've seen at least one picture of a Cromwell/Centaur? (sorry my post war British tank knowledge is limited ) that was captured by the Chinese.

Also need to remember that Korea was mainly an infantry war so there were only limited amounts of tanks around....its not the Eastern Front in WW2......there were no entire armoured divisions deployed, the biggest armoured unit used, at least on the UN side, was US Battalion/British Reigment level.

Quite interested in a Korean war force myself if one can find the right rules and game scale (platoon/company/battalion/brigade level) that the other people that I game with feel comfortable with.  Have to agree with Sunjester that its good that PM are prepared to commit to this era, certainly opens up a whole raft of future gaming opportunities once the range is available

 

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

A Cromwell Pierre, they were in the Recce Troop, I assume 11 like the Stuarts, but don't know for certain. It weren't proof from 84mm Sabot.

On Shermans - I think all the ones in Korea were welded, not cast. Should be M4A3E8/76(W), although you would need to do a 105 turret with coaxial flamethrower for the USMC.

IanS

[Sunray]

No Armour? borrow someone elses !    I've seen at least one picture of a Cromwell/Centaur? (sorry my post war British tank knowledge is limited ) that was captured by the Chinese.

Also need to remember that Korea was mainly an infantry war so there were only limited amounts of tanks around....its not the Eastern Front in WW2......there were no entire armoured divisions deployed, the biggest armoured unit used, at least on the UN side, was US Battalion/British Reigment level.

Quite interested in a Korean war force myself if one can find the right rules and game scale (platoon/company/battalion/brigade level) that the other people that I game with feel comfortable with.  Have to agree with Sunjester that its good that PM are prepared to commit to this era, certainly opens up a whole raft of future gaming opportunities once the range is available

Your borrowed Cromwell(s) - at least 12 captured by Chinese - relates to the Happy Valley battle of early 1951.   UN Intel reports that the Chinese passed them to the KPA. At least one used in defence of Inchon.  The explanation is that the Chinese were very much a peasant army.  Not a lot of trained tank crew- where as the Cromwell and the T-34 both descend from the Christie, so KPA would have some knowledge of how to use this tank.  The Chinese at this stage of the war simply did not use armour. This has to be reflected in the rules.  

You have to be careful in describing Korea as an infantry war.  It is perhaps useful to break the war into stages.  First stage, the KPA assault with 160 T-34s , and the retreat to the Pusan perimeter.  UN quickly establish air superiority, but  weak on the ground.  However  by 7 August 1950 the US have 400 medium tanks in the Pusan pocket (M4A3, M26, M46) and a superiority of 4to 1 when you factor in Royal Irish Centurions,  Cromwells , Lord Strathcona's Horse (M10s) and Filipin Chaffes.  

In terms of tank v tank, you have 9th July 1951 at Chonui.  M24 v T.34
Then 31 July at Chinjuon M26 v T-34 (the M26 had to be abandoned as a bridge was blown too early, no report of enemy recovering and using them.  Later reports of M4A3s engaging T.34s on 2 Aug and 'holding their own;

Naktong Bulge (early August) M26s in hull down positions break up T.34 attacks  - also benefit from CAS. (close air support).  Its also a good early example of in depth defence that would shape later NATO tactics

Then comes Inchon. The US Marines are fighting a slick combined arms battle with 50 T-34s being destroyed by M26s plus Corsair CAS

In the break out from Pusan, we have the largest tank engagement of the war.   A US intel report (now declassified Fort Lauderdale online ) counts a total of 239 destroyed or abandoned T.34 and 74 SU76 against 60 US Tanks.  The report gives the following detail of what was found below the 38th :

1.  39 by tank fire (16%)
2.  13 by rocket launchers (5%)
3.  102 by air strikes  (43%)
4   60 by napalm  (25%)

These stats were to shape NATO tactics in dealing with waves of T-34s, T-54s, and T-55s for many years to come!

Hope this is useful and stimulates an interest in gaming the Korean war.

Cheers

James
 

[pierre the shy]

Thanks for the details Sunray and Ian S....I defer to your knowledge on such matters.

Didn't know the UN had so much armour in Pusan that quickly.

Got a bit of time to do some research before the range comes out 

Cheers
Peter

[Sunray]

Thanks for the details Sunray and Ian S....I defer to your knowledge on such matters.

Didn't know the UN had so much armour in Pusan that quickly.

Got a bit of time to do some research before the range comes out 

Cheers
Peter

Peter, feel free to discuss and challenge.  Its a learning curve for all of us.  I am only wising up to then fact that US commanders denigrated the morale and combat readiness of their own men in engagements like Task Force Smith.  The revision (I have a link on the rumour thread) now shows they were covering their naivety in asking infantry to stop tanks with inferior and u/s equipment. No army brass likes to admit a balls up. The American military underestimated that the Soviets could train and arm a Third World nation to such efficiency.

Secondly please don't give Techno excuses !  I can just hear Phil "They have to do more research before I release my precious sculpts to Leon" .

I reckon I am getting a handle on Phase I of the war. (the 1950 Communist offensive, the Inchon landing and the push up from Pusan into North Korea )
I still need to learn a lot about Phase ii (the Chinese counter attack and how it petered out due to the very primitive Chinese approach to logistics. A problem which was solved in Vietnam by General Gap's use of 1000's of porters) And the Meatgrinder which offers nothing to game .  There is a Dunkirk style evacuation at Hungham which I need to study.
Phase III - the static dug in war around the 38th does not seem to offer much either.   But no doubt a fellow forum member will challenge that!     

I will probably end up gaming Korea like I did WW1 - keep to that early period of fluid movement and - in the Korean case, the improved Battle Field Management (the big improvement in comms over WW2) that allows Combined Arms to be taken to a new challenging level.  I have just ordered a few 1/144 F4U on ebay!   

[Techno]

Secondly please don't give Techno excuses !  I can just hear Phil "They have to do more research before I release my precious sculpts to Leon" .

Nah....I'm just waiting for the lists to be prioritized, so I know which order I'll be doing them.

THEN  (James  ) you'll be getting bombarded with emails, such as "What's this dude look like then ?.....Point me at some piccies......What about the kit on his back *...Does this look right ? 

To a great extent, once I've got a single figure from a range 'right', I can basically 'copy' my original sculpt, as far as the uniform is concerned !

Cheers - Phil  (*Like the one you've already sent....That one was brill.)

[Sunray]

Nah....I'm just waiting for the lists to be prioritized, so I know which order I'll be doing them.

THEN  (James  ) you'll be getting bombarded with emails, such as "What's this dude look like then ?.....Point me at some piccies......What about the kit on his back *...Does this look right ? 

To a great extent, once I've got a single figure from a range 'right', I can basically 'copy' my original sculpt, as far as the uniform is concerned !

Cheers - Phil  (*Like the one you've already sent....That one was brill.)

Happy to help in getting these little masterpieces to my table !  I see Nick Frost and his mates are still in 37 pattern web.  And even in British service bits of 37 were to linger on for a long time.  44 web had a short shelf life.   The reality check is that in reality, Brits and Commonwealth troops ras and pinch a lot of other people's kit. I had Norwegian shirts,  Swedish boots,  Dutch DPM trousers and a bits of US web.  Then a new RSM arrived .......

[Dave]

M75 apc were only used in the final weeks of the war and only a couple of them, M39 apc maybe a better bet used more extensively.

Dave

[mart678]

M75 was also used by Belgium during cold war

[Sunray]

Nah....I'm just waiting for the lists to be prioritized, so I know which order I'll be doing them.

THEN  (James  ) you'll be getting bombarded with emails, such as "What's this dude look like then ?.....Point me at some piccies......What about the kit on his back *...Does this look right ? 

To a great extent, once I've got a single figure from a range 'right', I can basically 'copy' my original sculpt, as far as the uniform is concerned !

Cheers - Phil  (*Like the one you've already sent....That one was brill.)

You mean we can stop talking about the VLA range (Very Late Aztecs) when Leon is in ear shot?

[Matt J]

I'm interested in all aspects of this one particularly the winter war and I notice this is doing well in the polls. However maybe a more logical, even chronological range release maybe better.
Eg start with early us, north Korean and rok.
Then add in this order
Tropical Brit
Summer Chinese
Commandoes
Winter Chinese
Late war us
Late war Brit

Surely it will be easier for techno to convert summer Chinese to winter than the other way around

[Sunray]

If  you want a gander at plastic Korean war figures (with a lot of mistakes in dress and weapons- ie US troops with Bren guns) have a look at the Plastic Soldier Review.  and click on IMEX Korean War.

The review is quite brutal and well educated in criticism.    IMEX opted for the summer look. 

In the case of RoK it does give a flavour of the conversion potential - via a simple paint job- inherent in the figures

[fsn]

Surely it will be easier for techno to convert summer Chinese to winter than the other way around

Dammit! That sounds logical. 

[Techno]

Yes, it certainly is.

I shouldn't have to 'pick' too much 'vulcanized' green stuff from the metal dolly if we do it that way round.

Picking green stuff off a used dolly is a RIGHT pain......Though Clibby & I have worked out a damn good (and relatively easy) way to do this....(You wouldn't believe it..... )

It DOES depend on how well the wee men survive the pressing process initially......
Some come out, almost 'as new'......Others get pretty much, completely trashed.

Cheers - Phil

[Matt J]

Phil - wouldn't you just convert a casting from the original green rather than than the original green itself?

ie casting of summer chinese, add more hat and padded jacket, remould (or is there something I'm missing).

This happens alot in the jewellery trade - 'oh that ring will sell well to our customers, buy it, stick it in a mould away you go...'