1870 Prussian flags - colorful or black and white?

[Techno]

Not at all, Patrick !

I found it very interesting.
I sometimes wonder whether different artists have shown what their eyes have interpreted as a/the 'correct shade'.
After all, we each see (and probably describe) colours in a very slightly different way, anyway. (Sometimes fairly drastically !)
Hope that makes sense !

Cheers - Phil.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Great find.
Might be the definitive answer to that flag question.

[mollinary]

Hi Patrick,

A fascinating discussion, and excellent research. Your illustrations clearly show the problem, as they seem to show at least three different shades of blue!  I would be inclined to go with the colour blue shown on the Lance pennon, and the medal ribbon. I agree that cornflower blue is a much darker shade than is commonly thought, and both Bavarian and Saxon surviving uniforms of the period appear much darker than many nineteenth century prints would imply. My own figures for both armies use Vallejo medium blue as a base colour.

Mollinary

[cameronian]

The problem being that 1) there would be no batch uniformity in the dye colour since at this time dye manufacture was more a craft than an industrial process 2) before the advent and widespread use of the anilene dyes (German invention) the plant/insect/mineral dyes in common use would wash out/fade with alarming rapidity.

[Oat]

It's true that there are a whole host of issues that also need to be considered. As Cameronian rightly states that dyes could be different with each batch, something that still is a problem to this day! Additionally the exposure to UV can alter the colours and mute them and cause them to alter.

And as Mollinary also points out correctly the images I posted show many different shades of blue, which can be chaulked up to a number of different factors, artist interpretation of the correct shade of blue, the photograph settings of whoever scanned the images I used, and finally the dyes used in the lithographs.

I've also looked in Regimental Colors of the German Armies in the War of 1870-71 by Gherardi Davis and unfortunately Oldenburg's regimental flag is not illustrated, he also only uses the term Blue to describe it without giving a more detailed shade name.

So what's this all mean? Well without real research into the colour and or tracking down what's left, if anything, of the renewed flag, we might never know. However I'm still of the mind that it was a darker shade of blue than what is called cornflower blue.

Also here's image of a surviving example of a dragoons lance pennant from 1882 which shows a fairly dark blue.



Finally, as someone that does book restoration and encounters blue fabrics/papers often enough, I can personally attest to the fact that seem to be a million shades of blue and that the eye had a knack for discerning them a lot more easily than various shades of red. This makes restoring/color matching blues so much harder with materials I have access to. The old dyes produced shades that are hard if not impossible to recreate with the synthetic dyes used in papers, clothes, inks that are used today.

[Leon]

Really interesting stuff there, thanks for posting it.

[cameronian]

This is really good stuff Oat, between you and Mollers I think we have a tremendous resource here.

[mollinary]

Great stuff Patrick,

Of course, if you have Fiebig, you will also have the black and white photo of one of the originals, in which the field does look much lighter than the later ones.    I am not sure what effort would have been made to match the field of the originals when they were replaced, or even, as you indicate, whether the same dyes were still available. Great and fascinating debate. Many thanks.

Mollinary

[Techno]

I see the flag above as so dark, I'd have said it was black, rather than dark blue.
Excellent discussion though, chaps !

Cheers - Phil

[Oat]

I'm glad to see that people are enjoying what I've posted and that it's creating more discussion into the proper blue! 

I also looked at the black and white photographs in Fiebig and you're right the field itself is much lighter than what I'd suppose a dark blue would be. Just like the lithographs (which like the large image with the soldier in white pants uses the same blue on the uniform as the flag) is limited by so many technical considerations Who knows how long the exposure was for the image, which could make the whole thing appear lighter than original. Sadly I think we might never know but I think it's probably a mid level blue, similar to the blue used on the medal's ribbon...not the faded part but the little bit of thread near the top that seems to be the original color that hasn't been faded with time.

I'm trying to get into contact with the German Historical Museum (DHM) to see if they have any knowledge of what happened to IR 91's flags, if there is anything left etc. I'm also going to put a call out to a historian I know with the Bundeswehr to see if they have the flag in one of their officers halls, ie the Stauffenbergsaal in the Officers school in Dresden.
If I find anymore information I will share it with everyone

Regards,

Patrick

[mollinary]

Patrick, you are a man after my own heart! I went down these sort of routes a decade ago to find the Saxon flags, and was helped enormously by the staff at the Army Museum in Dresden, and even invited to go and see the originals held in their magazines. All the information was there, it was just the lack of English language sources which had kept it hidden from the watgaimng world. I look forward to hearing more about your investigations. Who knows, you may have inspired me to restart my own!

Mollinary

[Oat]

haha what can I say, us oddballs know how to find each other! Mollinary, have you seen/read "Die Fahnen und Standarten der Koniglich Sachsischen Armee 1806-1918" by Militarhistorische Schriften des Arbeitskreises Saschsische Militargeschichte e.V ? It's a fantastic source for Saxon flags. There is also Hottenroth: Sächsische Fahnen und Standarten. Though finding a copy outside of a library is next to impossible it seems :
In addition to obscure topics like the specific color of blue on three flags carried during the unification wars, I'm also a sucker for regimental histories and more specifically information on the logistics, specific lessons learned during the 1870 war (ie fighting in forests, urban settings, sieges) and the small war that was fought behind the front lines. I've been slowly amassing all the books I can find that were published on these subjects during the 19th-early 20th century in germany. 
Glad to find another person like me out there! haha 

[mollinary]

We nuts have to stick together!  I picked up the Arbeitskreis book when I visited the museum in Dresden, and then got a photocopy of Hottenroth and a CD of its colour illustrations from Historischer-Bilderdienst.de   

Keep,up the good work!

Mollinary

[cameronian]

Oat ... and others, if you are interested in regimental histories keep an eye out for forthcoming issues of the Foreign Correspondent. Dr Frederich Steinhardt, who has done such a magnificent job translating Heidrich and Fontane is planning to submit a series of articles based on regimental histories of the period, mostly Prussian.

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

Resurrecting this thread.

I have what I assume to be an old Pendraken FPW set of Prussian flags with:
- 7 white field, no cross, orange centre (black eagle) with silver green surround and corner wreaths
- 2 black field, white cross, orange centre (black eagle) with gold surround and corner wreaths
- 4 white field, black cross, orange centre (black eagle) with gold surround and corner wreaths
- 12 white field, black cross, orange centre (black eagle) with silver green surround and corner wreaths.

The wedges are broader than on the picture of the current flags.

Are any of these usable or are they too inaccurate?  I will in any event be getting a sheet of newer flags but do not know if I could some use of some of the flags I have.

Basically I will end up with needing 2-4 Guard colours, plus at least 12-15 line infantry colours (as well as Hessian, Saxon, Bavarian, Baden etc colours) can get from other Pendraken sheets.   In the main I am aiming to have a colour per brigade for BBB purposes.

While I am at it does anyone know which colours either IR.75 or 76 carried in 17th Division? 

Kind regards.

Edward

[mollinary]

Hi Edward,

IR 75 and 76, raised in 1867,  had the model 1828 pattern for all their battalions - ie the black cross on white background with green/silver wreaths. Your earlier flag sheest are broadly accurate, as far as I recall, if a bit garish in colour (particularly the green). They may, however, be a slightly different size to the later ones.  The flags with the plain white fields are for Guard Fusiliers 3rd Battalion, all Battalions of the 3rd and 4th Foot Guards,  Guard Schutzen Battalion, Garde Pioneer Battalion, Guard Artillery. The ones with a white cross on a black field would work for landwehr units. The black cross on a white field flags with gold would work for a lot of units, but mostly IRs 13-30. The ones with the silver and green for most IRs from  IR 36 on.

Hope this quick note helps.

Mollinary

[mollinary]

Hi again  Edward,

Just had another thought. If your sheet has FPC2 Franco Prussian War Prussian Infantry written at the top of it , contains exactly what you described, except 3, rather than 4, of the black cross with gold wreaths, then it is actually a Baccus 6mm sheet!  It is fine for use with your army, and fits well on 10mm Pendraken flagpoles. In fact my  entire FPW/APW Prussian army of Pendraken figures uses these flags.  The white flags with black crosses which you describe are in fact for the first two battalions of the Guard Fusiliers, who took the old flags of the Guard Landwehr when they were formed. If you look carefully there should be small difference in some fo the flags with white fields, and these reflect the differences between flags for the 1st and 2nd Foot Guard Regiments  and the 3rd and 4th.

Hope this helps!

Andrew

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

Thanks Andrew.

Hi again  Edward,

Just had another thought. If your sheet has FPC2 Franco Prussian War Prussian Infantry written at the top of it , contains exactly what you described, except 3, rather than 4, of the black cross with gold wreaths, then it is actually a Baccus 6mm sheet!  It is fine for use with your army, and fits well on 10mm Pendraken flagpoles. In fact my  entire FPW/APW Prussian army of Pendraken figures uses these flags.  The white flags with black crosses which you describe are in fact for the first two battalions of the Guard Fusiliers, who took the old flags of the Guard Landwehr when they were formed. If you look carefully there should be small difference in some fo the flags with white fields, and these reflect the differences between flags for the 1st and 2nd Foot Guard Regiments  and the 3rd and 4th.

Hope this helps!

Andrew

It is definitely a Pendraken sheet. I'll wait to get a new Pendraken set of flags and see what I can mix and match.  I might get a 6mm set form Peter at Baccus to compare size wise.

Kind regards

Edward

[mollinary]

Greetings

Thanks Andrew.

It is definitely a Pendraken sheet. I'll wait to get a new Pendraken set of flags and see what I can mix and match.  I might get a 6mm set form Peter at Baccus to compare size wise.

Kind regards

Edward

Edward,

How odd!  My only memory of an old Pendraken sheet also had a number of the more colourful flags carried by some of the Grenadier and Guard Grenadier Regiments in it. it was these whcih I found rather garish. Even more curious that it has such a similar breakdown to the Baccus sheet. As a matter of interest, if I  may, how big are the flags?

Best,

Andrew

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

Edward,

How odd!  My only memory of an old Pendraken sheet also had a number of the more colourful flags carried by some of the Grenadier and Guard Grenadier Regiments in it. it was these whcih I found rather garish. Even more curious that it has such a similar breakdown to the Baccus sheet. As a matter of interest, if I  may, how big are the flags?

Best,

Andrew

Andrew - about 1cm square.

Edward