Battle of Jutland C4

[Ithoriel]

The Brits lost more ships and two to three times as many men as the Germans - tactically that's a loss and was certainly seen as a disaster in the immediate aftermath - dockyardies booed some of the returning ships.

The fact that the Brits could afford the losses more easily than the Germans, that the blockade remained in force and that "The prisoner has assaulted his jailer, but he is still in jail" are facets that several of my acquaintances over the years seem blissfully unaware of.

Let's face it, these programmes are not aimed at naval history buffs, they are the TV equivalent of coffee table books.

Half the fun of these things is realising that the picture on page 48 purportedly of a Tiger I is actually of a PzIVH and a Syrian one to boot!

[Leman]

I didn't realise that HMS Tiger was actually a Syrian PzIVH and that my grandad (who wasn't even on the Turkish side of the family) was actually a Syrian tank driver.

[Zippee]

Only because the dastardly Hun cut and run before we could give him the trouncing he so richly deserved!

Err, the dastardly Hun, turned about and re-engaged the RN line - he escaped twice or the opportunity was missed, handed back to us and dropped again

[Zippee]

The Brits lost more ships and two to three times as many men as the Germans - tactically that's a loss and was certainly seen as a disaster in the immediate aftermath - dockyardies booed some of the returning ships.

But that's an awful long way from being considered one of the greatest disasters of WW1 for a century!

Let's be honest it's not a war short on disasters, immense loss of life and staggering suffering for little gain. The losses at Jutland set against the greater cost pale into insignificance.

The returning ships were booed and Jellicoe held to account, for not meeting expectations, not for presiding over a disaster - the British don't boo survivors of military disasters, we have a very long tradition of venerating them in high esteem and celebrating their failure!

And if that wasn't the case we'd have court-martialled Beatty on his return (which we should have done in any case!)

[Last Hussar]

Err, the dastardly Hun, turned about and re-engaged the RN line - he escaped twice or the opportunity was missed, handed back to us and dropped again

Just the sort of cowardly underhand thing the Hun would do.

[Zippee]

Just the sort of cowardly underhand thing the Hun would do.

Not to mention planting 5th columnists on board British ships to leave flash doors open

Dashed blighters will be using them underwater boat things next, you just can't trust the cads to engage in a fair fight with 3:1 odds - it's hardly surprising they haven't got a decent cricket team, them and the French, can't trust 'em even if they say they're on our side, at least if we'd have fought the French we'd have had a proper victory to celebrate not some 'strategic goals were met' baloney. Bah! pass the port, Swithers.

[Ithoriel]

And if that wasn't the case we'd have court-martialled Beatty on his return (which we should have done in any case!)

Many years ago now I was involved in a Jutland refight where I represented Jellicoe. It was played out using 1:3000 scale ships on a number of school dining hall tables where each table represented an area of the North Sea but where adjacent tables might by areas of sea miles apart and tables at diagonally opposite ends of the hall were actually adjacent sea areas.

So, although I could see that Beatty's battlecruisers were on the same table as the the German battlecruisers and both sides were taking a pounding I had no real idea where they were nor where the High Seas Fleet were in relation to them.

I sent a message to Beatty asking for his position and that of the enemy and got back the information that the enemy battlecruisers were so many thousand yards  to starboard of him and the high Seas Fleet about 20 miles astern of him.

I provoked much hilarity with a tart reply along the lines of "And where the f**k are you, Beatty, you bl***y twonk!? Better reports or court-martial expected." Perhaps if the real Jellicoe had been as testy the result of the battle might have been significantly different.

[paulr]

Many years ago now I was involved in a Jutland refight where I represented Jellicoe. It was played out using 1:3000 scale ships on a number of school dining hall tables where each table represented an area of the North Sea but where adjacent tables might by areas of sea miles apart and tables at diagonally opposite ends of the hall were actually adjacent sea areas.

So, although I could see that Beatty's battlecruisers were on the same table as the the German battlecruisers and both sides were taking a pounding I had no real idea where they were nor where the High Seas Fleet were in relation to them.

I sent a message to Beatty asking for his position and that of the enemy and got back the information that the enemy battlecruisers were so many thousand yards  to starboard of him and the high Seas Fleet about 20 miles astern of him.

I provoked much hilarity with a tart reply along the lines of "And where the f**k are you, Beatty, you bl***y twonk!? Better reports or court-martial expected." Perhaps if the real Jellicoe had been as testy the result of the battle might have been significantly different.

That is a brilliant way of handling one of the biggest challenges of refighting Jutland or any large multi-force naval game, consider it "borrowed"

Given the discrepancies in both forces dead reckoning Beatty still would be out by about 12 miles, according to the Official Narrative.

The really frustrating thing was the number of cruisers that were able to see both the Battle Cruisers and the Grand Fleet and didn't report

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

We had a WWI campaign in the 80s, where the opposing fleets met each other and the resulting action was played out across the floor of a large hall.
Firing was by estimated ranges. The Germans couldn't understand how the British kept getting straddles and hit whereas their range guesses were a long way out and we're taking ages to adjust.

They didn't spot, until about an hour in, that one of our players was a chippy (carpenter), and we were playing across a parquet floor...

[Ithoriel]

Using Fletcher Pratt's rules from Don Featherstone's "Naval Wargames" by any chance Will?

My first naval games were played with those rules, 1:600th scale (mainly Airfix) ships and our back garden.

[Ithoriel]

That is a brilliant way of handling one of the biggest challenges of refighting Jutland or any large multi-force naval game, consider it "borrowed"

You might also like to borrow the idea from the same game that when a new table was needed it was selected randomly from those not in use, so knowing where in the North Sea a table had represented an hour ago told you nothing about where it represented now.

[fred.]

The really frustrating thing was the number of cruisers that were able to see both the Battle Cruisers and the Grand Fleet and didn't report

From the fairly limited reading I have done, the lack of reporting up the chain of command, and the lack of good* orders back down the chain of command seemed to be a massive problem for the RN. * there certainly seemed to be lots of bad, or irrelevant,  orders, from the Admiralty.


The table idea is genius - really adds in a true fog of war. Must have been hard work for the umpires to keep track of the real position of each battle group, and then the position of stuff on different tables.

There was an article last year or so, in Miniature Wargames, about a very big Napoleonic battle which had different forces converging on a town, and this used separate tables to represent each force as it moved and encounter the enemy (or not). As contact was made, and other forces marched to the sound of the guns, then tables would be brought together, as forces got close to each other. In the end they had a massive set piece battle across many tables, but the timing of troops entering (and their positions) was due to the earlier manoeuvring.

[Zippee]

I sent a message to Beatty asking for his position and that of the enemy and got back the information that the enemy battlecruisers were so many thousand yards  to starboard of him and the high Seas Fleet about 20 miles astern of him.

I provoked much hilarity with a tart reply along the lines of "And where the f**k are you, Beatty, you bl***y twonk!? Better reports or court-martial expected." Perhaps if the real Jellicoe had been as testy the result of the battle might have been significantly different.

Classic

I would look forward to his reply of "at about 15 fathoms, m'lord"

[Ithoriel]

The table idea is genius - really adds in a true fog of war. Must have been hard work for the umpires to keep track of the real position of each battle group, and then the position of stuff on different tables.

The Umpires (there were 3) had a map of the North Sea covered in little transparent polypockets (originally designed for conference delegate nametags) about the size of a playing card stuck on to the map. A card with the table number was slotted in to the relevant pocket. Occasionally umpires would amble up to a table look for a moment or two and call back, "Table 15 Fast Battleship Group" or whatever, so clearly even they didn't always remember what was where!

In our game the Fast Battleships entered the Battlecruiser fight far earlier and in the end  2 German battlecruisers were sunk, one scuttled and the other two badly knocked about. Two British battlecruisers limped away with flooded magazines and significant damage with Lion being ignominiously towed backwards away from the fight by those two with no working guns, engines or rudder. The other three were still able to move and fight but were badly damaged enough that they were ordered to return to Rosyth.

Also in our game we were penalised if the British light cruisers and destroyers were judged to have "communicated unnecessarily" which lead to there being almost no reports from the players commanding them.

No battleships on either side were sunk and very few actually got into action let alone got damaged.

[fred.]

Sounds like they got the feel of the game just right.

The use of plastic pockets and cards to track the tables is very clever too.