Baroque WIP

[Zippee]

Started my Baroque 10mm project, early days but thought I'd share some WIP pictures - not the best just snapped on my phone but gives the idea.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/albums/with/72157667670885881

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Those are a bit good!

[Luddite]

Very pretty!

Top tip, large mdf bases warp.  To stop the 'curl up', score the underside and paint with diluted PVA glue.   

[Techno]

Looking really good ! 
Cheers - Phil

[Steve J]

Very nice work

[Ithoriel]

Impressive looking units. A group of those are going to look the business.

[Subedai]

just had a look through your albums, like the chaps, the table and especially your games room.

[d_Guy]

As with your other projects I quite admire the painting. You've said elsewhere that you use 120x40mm basing and I must say that is going to look really good for ECW. I Like the pike block with greater depth then the musket sleeves. I notice that the white regiments appear to have an ensign next to the drummer but red has a pikeman (not that they can't be both). But assume that's where the flags are going?

[Zippee]

Very pretty!

Top tip, large mdf bases warp.  To stop the 'curl up', score the underside and paint with diluted PVA glue.   

Thanks,

I've heard of this but must say I've never had the problem - I have a load of 6" square 6mm terrain on MDF and haven't had any issues in the last 10 years.

That said I don't saturate my bases when adding sand/grit and foliage, maybe that's the key - I also don't paint them. . .

[Zippee]

As with your other projects I quite admire the painting. You've said elsewhere that you use 120x40mm basing and I must say that is going to look really good for ECW. I Like the pike block with greater depth then the musket sleeves. I notice that the white regiments appear to have an ensign next to the drummer but red has a pikeman (not that they can't be both). But assume that's where the flags are going?

Thanks D_Guy - all the info on the units is in the description underneath the photos - must be a bad design choice by Flickr because no one is seeing it   I list the codes, numbers and base sizes there.

All the units have standard bearers (same figure from EC05) - next to the drummer, just waiting on Leon for the flags. The front rank of the pike block (L-R) is Pike, Drum, Standard, Pike - I ummed and arred about doing the drum and flag the other way round so you could see the drum more easily but that would have meant the flag would look off-centre and the flag is the main visual thing on the table.

[Zippee]

just had a look through your albums, like the chaps, the table and especially your games room.

Ah yes 25 square metres of dedicate gaming space - I need to update those pictures as it has two tables and is fully shelved and stocked now (although the beer fridge and wine cooler need a re-stock)

5 years of landscaping and construction hard-labour weekends but well worth it in the end 

[Westmarcher]

Very nice figures, Zippee. Also, interesting to read about sealing the bases (or not as the case may be). I've only started using pre-cut mdf bases in recent times and, whilst no where as large as the ones used or proposed below, my instinct is to seal them with paint anyway.

I Like the pike block with greater depth then the musket sleeves.

[Sorry to throw the cat in amongst the pigeons, here.] Before I sold my Pike & Shot collection (many years ago), I often deployed Pike elements that were deeper than the musket sleeves. Indeed, many rules (e.g., DBR) allow you to do so plus we often see war-games units on the table top similarly deployed.

However, now I am not sure that the Pike blocks in the ECW and later wars of Louis XIV were actually deeper than the musket sleeves.

Does anyone have any contemporary prints showing Pike blocks with a greater depth than the Shot elements? (this is not a challenge, by the way - I seriously don't know the answer). Somewhere buried in the link below, there is even an illustration or description of Pike & Shot arrayed in 'Swedish Brigade' order with pikemen arrayed in ranks of only 5 deep (the Shot still being in ranks of 6 deep - Dutch Brigade being, of course, 8 deep). The reason given for 5 ranks is that any deeper, even 6 ranks, would mean that the rearmost ranks could only serve as back-up since the distance between ranks is usually a metre and pikes are not usually longer than six metres .....

http://syler.com/drillDemo/menu.html

p.s. If this link looks familiar to some of you, this was posted by me in November 2015. In the same thread, Rob also provided the following link which may also be of general interest to Pike & Shot fans. http://forum.milua.org/archive/TactiqueUk.htm

[Leman]

Wow, that games room's a good size.

[Zippee]

Very nice figures, Zippee. Also, interesting to read about sealing the bases (or not as the case may be). I've only started using pre-cut mdf bases in recent times and, whilst no where as large as the ones used or proposed below, my instinct is to seal them with paint anyway.

[Sorry to throw the cat in amongst the pigeons, here.] Before I sold my Pike & Shot collection (many years ago), I often deployed Pike elements that were deeper than the musket sleeves. Indeed, many rules (e.g., DBR) allow you to do so plus we often see war-games units on the table top similarly deployed.

However, now I am not sure that the Pike blocks in the ECW and later wars of Louis XIV were actually deeper than the musket sleeves.

Thanks Westie,

Well my units are meant to be representational not 100% authentic. I assume that there was no consistent standard in the ECW, with the vagaries of numbers and equipment meaning battalia were deployed as available rather than to some perfect plan. Also there is no guarantee that the pikes are in the centre, it very much depends on how the battalia is deployed at the moment. However this is the classic look and the one I have gone for.

It's worth pointing out that these are (in Baroque terms) Early Pike & Musket bases, good for 1610 to 1660 or thereabouts. Prior to that you have Early Tercio (120mm x 120mm) and Late Tercio (120mm x 80mm) and afterwards Late Pike & Musket (120mm x 40mm) which have considerably fewer pikes on them - in my scheme 1660+ units will have a small pike centre of 4 pikes and 3 command with large wings of 28 shot. This will make them look markedly different from the Early period ones.

By comparison Early Tercios have 3 command, 46 pikes and 48 shot in 4 sleeves; Late Tercios 3 command, 28 pike and 30 shot in 2 sleeves. Oh and Pike blocks for late Swiss/Landsknecht types with 6 command, 12 halberd, 116 pikes and 10 sword/front rank types on a 120mm square)

The whole period is one of transition so I don't think we can be too pedantic about dates, especially not in the deployment and equipment of troops in the decidedly amateur armies of the ECW 

[d_Guy]

@Zippee - I was using my iPad to look at your pics so just enlarged them on my screen IF you touch-open them all your notes appear (just tried). So NOT a Flckr problem 

@Westie et. al. I have no idea either! The references you provided are excellent and I have looked through them before. I like 16th, 17thc warefare because of the transition to fire power and all the formations that were tried. I think that most contemporary "bird's eye" illustrations certainly suggest equal (or near equal)  depth of musket sleeves and pike blocks AND I think in wargaming they are generally portrayed that way (in fact that's the way I do it).

All that aside I have not solved the problem of how the pikes protected the muskets. To me the deeper pike block suggests (maybe) that the musketeers could more easily "roll under" (sorry that's Napoleonic) the pikes or interleaved with them. In Zippee's formation we could simply argue that the pikes have doubled their ranks in preparation for defending against horse 

And as I was writing Zippee has now answered and brought in the considerations for Baroque.

What I really really want to know is what "push of pike" means! Short of some postings at TMP not sure there is a firm answer