Tank information required

[skywalker]

I was wondering if any of the knowledgeable fellows or tread heads out there can help me.
Did the Germans use the Panzer 38T in Africa?

Thanks

[Orcs]

Just had a quick look in Donald Feathersones "Tank battles in Miniature" Western deserrt volume, and it does not appear in there.

He Served in the Western Desert so should Know.  I will stand to be corrected though

[skywalker]

Thanks Orcs, I had a feeling they never made it to sunny climes but I was hoping that they did as I think they are a great little tank

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

They went into France and into the East, but not the desert afaik...

[Ithoriel]

Wikipedia also thinks they were not deployed to Africa


Campaigns

    Invasion of Poland with the German 3rd Light Division
    Operation Weserübung (Norway) with the German 31st Army Corps
    Battle of France with the 7th Panzer, and 8th Panzer Divisions
    Operation Barbarossa and subsequent operations with the German 7th, 8th, 12th, 19th, 20th, 22nd Panzer Divisions and Hungarian First Armoured Field Division.
    Eastern Front operations with the Romanian 2nd Tank Regiment.[9]

[skywalker]

Thanks for the help Gentlemen, it looks like they won't be getting a holiday in the sun

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

No although some of the Marders used may have been on the chassis. Almost all the gun tanks were in 7th Panzer by 41.

IanS

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

No 38(t) gun tanks in Africa.  No Panzer III with 37mm either - all those sent initially had 50L42 guns (Jentz checked the vehicle serial numbers and the units from which they came).  There were Panzer I's though. 

1941 in the desert is interesting for the myriad German and British types often operating alongside one another.  By contrast the Italians - after February when all the M11/39 were lost) were pretty consistent using the M13/40.   

Kind regards

Edward

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

And each side using each other's tanks!

[skywalker]

Thanks again for the wealth of information.

[Rob]

This table shows the tanks actually used by each division. The Afrika Korps armoured divisions are 15th panzer and 21st panzer. 21st panzer was made of regiments attached from other divisions and was initially called the 5th light division as seen in this table:
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/afv-strengths/_afv_41-06-22.htm

This table shows the dates of tank deliveries to the Afrika Korps:
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/afv-strengths/North-Africa_arrivals.htm


Cheers, Rob  

[Roy]

Game: One Pz. VI Tiger. See how many allied things it can destroy before it gets blown up.

Once saw a game like that at a York Bunker open day. back in the late 90s. Three Tigers against an American force. Tigers mid-way up the table in a destroyed (late-'44) village and controlling the roads/countryside, and the US forces had to destroy them to get past and off the other table edge. US armour and infantry being of lesser quality in this case than the Germans, but outnumbering it heavily. Game was a demo game - players controlled the US, gamesmaster the Tigers.

[toxicpixie]

That'll be one of the whole four occasions during the war American tanks encountered Tigers then

I read a good wrinkle many years back from Frank Chadwick (IIRC) talking about running Command Decision at conventions. When placing spotted German units, if it was an AFV of any kind he always put down a Tiger model. If it was a gun he put down an 88. Only if experienced enough troops got close enough for a visual did he correct the model. There's an amusing snippet where a player running an inexperienced US infantry unit fires it's Bazooka at the front of a "Tiger" and kills it. The player obviously knew the numbers involved and that he couldn't achieve that result on the dice he rolled, and stood there churning over in his mind before confidently announcing it must be a pre-production Tigger with the original Porsche turret with the X less inch of non-face hardened soft steel , and he must have hit the hatch square on etc etc.

Some nice fog of war there

[Wulf]

There's a solitaire boardgame called 'Patton's Best' from Avalon Hill where every tank spotted IS a Tiger (Tiger's gun, Tiger's armour) until properly identified, and likewise every gun is an 88. makes you a bit more cautious...

[Ithoriel]

Duel of the Giants: Eastern Front

2 Tigers and a Stuka vs 9 T34s