Scottish "park" walls

[fsn]

I CAN split threads....

And hairs. And doubtless hares.

I had a mate who could direct two streams of urine ... yes, he could split pees.

[d_Guy]

I had a mate who could direct two streams of urine ... yes, he could split pees.

But to return the thread to walls (and not a new topic on micturation - which we could have slipped to earlier BTW)

In your picture of sheep enclosures (with roofless cottages behind) to what period would these date?
I had read John Prebble's The Highland Clearances years ago and have rooted in my mind that there is an explosion in building sheep pens after 1745. But I may also conflate Irish history with this. Adding to my confusion I am not overly clear as to precisely what is highland and what is not.

For wargaming purposes I would suggest two types of wall: the lowly dry-stone type designed to contain animals and the gentrified high stone wall designed to keep people out.

Would it be correct to use the lowly dry-stone wall through-out Scotland in the seventeenth century?
Would the high stone privacy wall exist outside of the lowland cities in the same time period?

[fsn]

I can only talk for my own islands. There, the houses seem to have been that way for centuries. My own is supposed to date from the C15.

There are no trees on the islands, so stone dykes are the only option.   

[Sunray]

Stone walls occur where you have a ready supply of the raw material in the soil.  This is pretty much all of Scotland.   The Highland clearances stimulated by the fact that sheep and game were more profitable than people .  This meant a lot less enclosed plots.  By contrast the Lowlands were to see the classical agrarian revolution in modern farming methods.  By the Victorian  era, the books and instruction on farming had changed the language.  Scottish farmers generally dropped the term 'perk' and began to talk about fields.  

Ireland had a different tale.  There were no clearances and little emigration apart from Protestant Ulster.  The 19th century population exploded.  The staple diet was the potato.  Hence the human tragedy on a biblical scale when the crop failed.  

[d_Guy]

I can only talk for my own islands. There, the houses seem to have been that way for centuries. My own is supposed to date from the C15.

There are no trees on the islands, so stone dykes are the only option.   

Thanks.  I have never been to to the Highlands and Islands - only the lowlands around the Forth littorial and up toward Aberdeen a few times.
Have been to Aran islands (off Gaway in the Republic of Ireland) and they are much as you describe. I know they are trying re-forest areas of Scotland and trying to figure out what the Highlands looked like in 17th c.

Incidentally since you are noted for throwing curveballs that are hard to hit - if you were, in fact,  born it the house you suggested - your homeland is starkly beautiful!

[d_Guy]

Sunray,
Thanks also.
I expressed my question poorly. Prior to 1745 in Scotland and the Ascendancy in Ireland, the image I have is of many low-walled fields all over the place. After - these were torn down (as well as most cottages) to open up grazing land. Because of the vast increase in sheep the stones were re-employed to build a multitude of pens for sheep shearing and such.  Would you think that many walled fields would work in the 17th c in either Scotland or Ireland?

I have bunches of questions about hedges but will save for another day

[Sunray]

Yes, there would have been pens and shelters - wool was a major source of wealth in the 16th - 18th century.  The red cushions of the House of Lords are still stuffed with the stuff.  You need pens for shearing and some shelter for lambing.  In the highlands,  the summer grazing would be the higher pastures, and in the winters/spring  lambing period  you use the valleys/glens with some shelter to supplement feed.  I run 87 ewes on our farm.

The older native breeds of the 16th -18th century lambed a lot easier than the cross breeds of today where the demand  for fat lambs has increased the birth size/weight and the need for human intervention. 

My God we are now into livestock husbandry. Apologies to all dedicated wargamers.       

[Sunray]

Yes, there would have been pens and shelters - wool was a major source of wealth in the 16th - 18th century.  The red cushions of the House of Lords are still stuffed with the stuff.  You need pens for shearing and some shelter for lambing.  In the highlands,  the summer grazing would be the higher pastures, and in the winters/spring  lambing period  you use the valleys/glens with some shelter to supplement feed.  I run 87 ewes on our farm.

The older native breeds of the 16th -18th century lambed a lot easier than the cross breeds of today where the demand  for fat lambs has increased the birth size/weight and the need for human intervention. 

My God we are now into livestock husbandry. Apologies to all dedicated wargamers.       

On the other hand, I never appreciated the Bocage of Normandy until I visited it in 1984 and got a tactical briefing on how the Germans used it.  Its so much more than the conventional hedge at the bottom of your garden.

[cameronian]

The 'Park' was the piece of ground nearest the big house, often laid out more to please the eye than from any considerations of agriculture, there would be animals grazing in the park, probably sheep. The Park wall would be high enough - in a big house - to keep the stock in and prying eyes out so probably 6' anyway and always of stone. At Prestonpans the unfortunate Colonel Gardiner (Hanoverian) found himself fighting an engagement next to his own house, contemporary accounts relate how the park walls constituted a considerable impediment to movement. Gardiner was killed a few hundred yards from his own policy trying to rally his dragoons.

[d_Guy]

My God we are now into livestock husbandry. Apologies to all dedicated wargamers.       

Pierre-the-shy started this thread with a lot of great questions. He made the point that he is far away. For many of us that don't have "boots on the ground" so to speak, all the detail we can get is useful (as you mentioned about the bocage). It's good to know why such structures existed, how they were used and when they were built.  I'm finding all the information by multiple posters interesting.  I think of myself as a dedicated wargamer (albeit an eccentric one!) 

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

/quote]
He's fitting right in! 

[WeeWars]

This is a photo of Tranent Church wall, the side that faced the Hanoverian artillery fire and where the first casualties of the '45 occurred.



The mortally wounded Colonel Gardiner was brought here to the church after the battle.

The village of Tranent and the church (the wall in the photo is the side facing the battlefield) can be seen in this model:



The height of the wall of Bankton House can be seen here:

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Cool shots!

[pierre the shy]

Thanks for all the info...that shot of the model Prestonpans battlefield answers a lot of questions 

[Sunray]

An image of a well set up wargames table with the correct scenics and figures is worth 1,000 words in the thread.

Well done wee wars. 

[d_Guy]

An image of a well set up wargames table with the correct scenics and figures is worth 1,000 words in the thread.

10 out of 10!

Thanks also WeeWars!
For me there is no such thing as too many picture.

[Leman]

Wonderful looking display.

[Techno]

Definitely !!

Cheers - Phil