First Falklands Game

[bigjackmac]

Sunray,

Good to go, sounds like we're on the same page with that statement, thanks. 
Having said that, the RMs I served with definitely had some rules for real life combat 

V/R,
Jack

[Sunray]

Sunray,

Good to go, sounds like we're on the same page with that statement, thanks. 
Having said that, the RMs I served with definitely had some rules for real life combat 

V/R,
Jack

I was thinking war game type rules -  I won't mess up this thread with any more of my ramblings, but its sufficient to say I was still in my teens when my first comrade was KIA. (Operation Banner).   In cross training with other NATO forces I made the observation that many suffered from Blank Round Syndrome - they considered themselves bullet proof.   We who had been with 39 and 8 knew that we were mortal.

And many of those mortal  lives were saved by an impromptu O Group  behind a rock whilst a Corporal came up with another 'cunning plan'.    I would rather wait 5 minutes for the old and bold in Support C to get their act together and be confident of the result.  Or was that just the Norton way ?


   When it comes down to it the golden rule is you won't let your mates down.   And that attitude of mind is what decides who is selected to wear the lid and who is rejected.   

Cheers

[Sunray]

Just a short post script.  In 1983 I visited most the  Falkland battlefields. (battlemountains would be a more accurate term).

The finest action - in my opinion - which epitomises the blend of professionalism, "a desire to avoid futile and useless casualties" [Lt-Co AF Whitehead] an intelligent use of ALL available  support (about 1500 rounds of 105 to be exact - not just the 29 Gunners but from HMS Glamorgan), the confidence to scrap a Warminster  battle plan with improvised alternatives  and raw courage under fire-  is  the Battle of Two Sisters.


The opposition were not raw conscripts but the elite of 5th Marine Infantry.

If you want a flavour of the Falklands I commend the Wikipedia account pf Two Sisters  that is  online.  It even captures Dyton's dismay as he discerned from the fall in volume of fire that Zulu were running out of ball, and the need for desperate measures of reckless gallantry to press the attack home.

[Gennorm]

Hi Sunray, It's frightening how long ago the war was. In fact the time since then is nearly as long as from WW2 to the Falklands 

Operation Corporate was an amazing achievement. Only the USA definitely also had the ability to do it and the Soviets would have struggled to emulate it. Operating at the end of that logistical trail is what is often forgotten about. Logistics is an issue elsewhere too, as many armies are poorly organised. I wouldn't rate the Iraqis or Iranians as logistically adept, and I can imagine the Ethiopians and Somalis would have had limits on ammo; all were fighting in full-on conflicts around that time. The fact that was a load of ball and shell in the first place is impressive.

The ability to change a plan on the hoof and improvise is what marks out the better armies from the rest.

Nick

[bigjackmac]

Sunray,

"I was thinking war game type rules..."
Ahh, well, I certainly feel like a donkey then

"...I was still in my teens when my first comrade was KIA."
Must have been tough at that age.  I was 23, practically an old man, then not again until 28, when I was definitely an old man (by our standards).  And that was following 9/11, so it really snowballed from there.

"...many suffered from Blank Round Syndrome..."
If you think it was bad then, you should have seen us after we received Interceptor vests with SAPI plates (sorry, I'm making some assumptions about your years of service based on your age/tied to Falklands).

"When it comes down to it the golden rule is you won't let your mates down."
Certainly.  For all the talk, in the US at least, that we'd gone soft and were raising only lazy, self-centered, self-gratifying lumps, it restored my faith to see what our 18 and 19 year-olds did in Fallujah (I was 30 at the time!), absolutely selfless.  I was with Bravo Co, 1st Bn, 5th Marines at the time; I don't know if they were technically the best unit I was ever with, but what they accomplished in the streets with only rifles, pistols, and hand grenades certainly makes it seem so, certainly as my memories get more hazy with nostalgia

Take care.

V/R,
Jack

[Sunray]

Hi Sunray, It's frightening how long ago the war was. In fact the time since then is nearly as long as from WW2 to the Falklands 

Operation Corporate was an amazing achievement.

The ability to change a plan on the hoof and improvise is what marks out the better armies from the rest.

Nick

Thanks for this Nick.  Just to put the record straight the Paras and Royals were never meant to tab/yomp across East Falkland.  The idea was to use the choppers to airlift them into LZs and then muster in FUP's prior to assault, but the all changed with Atlantic Conveyor going down and it was back to the 19th century LPC.

The success of the LPC had a negative effect on the British Army.  We assumed a macho pride in doing things on foot.   It became a national trade mark.   We actually forgot that in most modern tactical situations it is essential to have mechanised mobility.

When it came to Desert Storm we were naïve enough to deploy our special forces,  22 SAS on foot, to take out Scuds.  You can read the tragedy that unfolds in Billy Mitchell's book Bravo Two Zero  We forgot that the correct mode of deployment in the wastes of the desert was like Mayne and Stirling in WW2.  Fast 4x4s bristling with MGs. 

[Gennorm]

Sunray, I know. The loss of the AC was a real blow. Thankfully they were fit enough to yomp/tab and the Argentines weren't expecting it.

It's a long time since I read B2Z, but I thought there was mention of the Pink Panthers in it with the decision being made not to use them as they were to hide close to the MSR although I may be wrong. I'm not so sure that the Army went off mechanisation in practice despite the bluster - the Saxon came into service soon after Corporate, the Royals still had their Snocats for their main job and Granby was virtually all mechanised with some attacks defying doctrine and going in on the Warriors when resistance was found to be weak.

Nick

[Sunray]

Yes, Nick, I will need to qualify the above remarks.  The British Army - post Falkland - did overemphasise that troops could deploy on foot and all kit could  'man-portable' [ I used to feel sorry for the Milan teams as they stumbled past] .  There are two schools in Army high command.  Those who have come from conventional  infantry/cavalry backgrounds and those who have been special forces like Parachute Regiment and SAS.  The BAOR was firmly in the conventional school, and the new kit like the Warrior was well received.  Mechanised tactics were refined and  Granby vindicated the British Battle Group approach.  1 Staffs deployment was a piece of model practice as mechanised infantry.  Even in going in as you say, they refined overwatch into a fluid mechanised version of Fire team 'fire and movement' that had not been possible with the 432.

The Royals were smart enough to know there was a time when its right to yomp and a time when its right  to hitch a lift. Any time they were deployed with armour they were a joy to work with.

The other school had champions like that  De la Billiere  [ I am not a fan] who had a tendency to promote suicide missions with scant attention to detail - to the point that the missions were not viable.   He got his petulant way with Brave Two Zero.   In Corporate there were men with balls in 6 Boat troop who stood up to him.   His revenge was to wreck their careers.

I must apologise to forum members for hijacking this thread.  I am happy to communicate via personal if you want more meat on the bone .  Moderators  please feel free to delete named individual.   

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Not at all.

[Techno]

I must apologise to forum members for hijacking this thread.  I am happy to communicate via personal if you want more meat on the bone .  Moderators  please feel free to delete named individual. 

Must be one of the most relevant 'hi-jacks' ever on the forum.
I think we can let you off, Sunray. 

Cheers - Phil

[Sunray]

Must be one of the most relevant 'hi-jacks' ever on the forum.
I think we can let you off, Sunray. 

Cheers - Phil

Ummm not at all sure about that.  What I can say is that since Corporate and Banner, there was a change of culture in the SAS, and in the type they selected, with a preference to those who had entered the service via Pegasus  Company.   

One "ungameable" aspect of the Falklands was the covert intelligence gathering and harassment action by SBS and SAS.   A lot of this was passive surveillance, however with D Squadron on Mount Kent for example, the Argentine forces were reduced to crapping in their dugouts as those who went to the latrine just disappeared into the night.   You can imagine the impact on unit morale.     

It can be argued that  with a preference for Para types, a lot of the stealth craft and covert mindedness was sacrificed for a more aggression orientated overt style that made the SAS a de facto extension of the Paras.  The backlash by those in the MoD who appreciated the need for a revival and renewal of discrete military black ops  capability  - as opposed to the Intelligence Services -  and driven by operational needs of 9/11,   was the SRR.   Its a proud unsung  lineage that goes back to the LRDG and the Det.

They are on the frontline keeping us all safe in the UK.  So spare a thought this Christmas for the men and women of the SRR.

[paulr]

Ummm not at all sure about that. 
...
They are on the frontline keeping us all safe in the UK.  So spare a thought this Christmas for the men and women of the SRR.

I agree with Techno, one of the most fascinating hijacks I've read

I will spare a thought for them, now I know they exist

[Gennorm]

One of the points of a game is to inspire discussion; preferably in the pub afterwards. This forum will do until we find a pub. Good hijacking.

Nick

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

You've never been into the forum bar Nick?
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5810.0.html

[Gennorm]

I have now 

[Tawa]

I have now 

Don't worry. That should wash out, eventually. That bit is probably edible, and I have no idea what that stain is! 
I take my hat off to our forces.

Loads of my mates are current/ex forces including a pair of Engineers, a pair of Paras (one a former Pathfinder), some marines, a medic, a tanky and one of "them". Oh, and a lass that was in the RN.
Her full job description was rather hilarious.....

The closest I got was being graded P7 on my medical