ww2 French infantry

[fsn]

I'm sorry, but that overlarge beret is very ... camp.

[FierceKitty]

Monty, no less, is full of praise for the fighting qualities of the average footfrogger, to coin a term.

[fsn]

I was not disparaging the fighting abilities ... just the beret.

[FierceKitty]

Didn't mean to imply you were - I got to this thread a bit late. Sorry if I gave an unintended impression.

[Orcs]

Hi Ronan

It was only a tease, and no offence was intended.

I am fully aware that it was the Government that surrendered not the Troops or the population. Many of the British only got off the beach at Dunkirk due to the French holding the Germans back, and many of those French soldiers  returned to Britain to continue the fight.

Mark

[ronan]

Was the alpine uniform tunic and breeches and putteess the same cut as the standard foot

Dave

I think they used many things..  what would be useful for gaming ...? I won't give a good advice, as I mainly use skirmish (CoC) so I need ALL   May we use a poll ?  ( with the "tarte" and skis ? )


Here's a summarize of what I've got ( I should write something on my blog, as Vichy stole their story as soon as november, 1940 ...  )

Narvik, Norway, 1940  :

They also fought with "regular" helmets..

In the Alps  :


and more :









Thank you.

I was not disparaging the fighting abilities ... just the beret.

Don't say this in front of one of these proud and elite soldier !!    

Hi Ronan

It was only a tease, and no offence was intended.

I am fully aware that it was the Government that surrendered not the Troops or the population. Many of the British only got off the beach at Dunkirk due to the French holding the Germans back, and many of those French soldiers  returned to Britain to continue the fight.

Mark

Yes, I know you knew that.. But some people  ( young people ? ) are still seriously thinking this.. So I wanted to write this.  Again, I'm sorry if I was a bit aggressive.

[Dave]

I'm sorry, but that overlarge beret is very ... camp.

How can you say that after the picture you posted of me smoking a pipe

[Dave]

Thanks for the information so far, it will help me put a mster list together for the designer for next month. 

Looking at the pictures of the Alpine troops, baggy trousers gaiters, jacket and helmet - this would make them slightly different to troops in puttees, tunic helmet for the designer??

Dave

[Fenton]

Would these work for WW1 as well?

[ronan]

Thanks for the information so far, it will help me put a mster list together for the designer for next month. 

Looking at the pictures of the Alpine troops, baggy trousers gaiters, jacket and helmet - this would make them slightly different to troops in puttees, tunic helmet for the designer??

Dave

The fortress troops used a smaller béret, and - I think - their vests were the official release.

But the chasseurs alpins wore a shorter jacket.  Their trousers were  also shorter, looking a bit like golf trousers.

They got some leather and  sheep uniforms in Norway, different again :

Would these work for WW1 as well?

I don't think so. They changed in 1920..
( but if you paint as bad as me, you could use them as proxies         )

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hello Dave et al

There's no joy in Jouineau re the Dragons portés.

You could look at the TQD 20mm figures which are really good for uniform details:-



from here - http://www.cpmodelsminiatures.co.uk/TQD%20Castings%20WWII%20French%20Forces.htm.

A good source for 1940 is this reenactors site:-

http://www.minitracks.fr/montcornet_2010.htm





Here's a description from the Axis History Forum:-

- "Dragons Portés" (Portés means carried by a vehicle) is the motorized infantry classicaly in the Division Légère Mécanique (DLM) and Division Légère de Cavalerie (DLC).
Dragons Portes were professional units of better morale, though few personnel had any combat experience (senior officers were often WWI veterans though). They were the the motorized infantry in the Division Legere Mécanique (DLM) and Division Legere de Cavalerie (DLC).The firepower of the squads was high since each was armed with two LMGs. The French Dragons Portes squad was designed to cover a large ground area and as such during initial planning for these units (in the early 30's), each squad received 2 LMGs. At the beginning, all squads were equipped with 2 vehicles carrying each 1 LMG and 7 men : in fact 1 half-squad of 6 men + 1 driver. So a Dragons Portés Squad squad had 12 men (1 VB launcher, 2 LMGs) and 2 vehicle. The problem was the number of vehicles. So a bigger vehicle has been designed (Laffly S20TL for the Dragons Portes) to carry the whole squad, but this time reduced to 10 men, keeping the same armament (1 VB launcher, 2 LMGs). Each Laffly S20TL was equiped with two AA mounts which could possibly be fitted on each aft corner, on each side, and on the center the first row of rear seats and the rest of the hull. The devices could accomodate either a FM 24/29 or a 8 mm Hotchkiss MG. However for combat, both LMGs were supposed to be used by the squad (only during transport would the LMGs be used in an AA role. (RDP = regiment de Dragons Portes).
Laffly S20TL = softskin vehicle also known as "VDP" for "voiture de Dragons Portés" = Dragons Portés's car. The vehicle were to be hidden quite far away from where the Dragons Portés were supposed to fight. French troops were surprised by the German Schützen + SPWs tactics which would usually dismount troops just before MG range. This also resulted in German APCs being destroyed by the French AT guns.


Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Dave]

Hello Dave et al

There's no joy in Jouineau re the Dragons portés.

You could look at the TQD 20mm figures which are really good for uniform details:-



from here - http://www.cpmodelsminiatures.co.uk/TQD%20Castings%20WWII%20French%20Forces.htm.

A good source for 1940 is this reenactors site:-

http://www.minitracks.fr/montcornet_2010.htm





Here's a description from the Axis History Forum:-

- "Dragons Portés" (Portés means carried by a vehicle) is the motorized infantry classicaly in the Division Légère Mécanique (DLM) and Division Légère de Cavalerie (DLC).
Dragons Portes were professional units of better morale, though few personnel had any combat experience (senior officers were often WWI veterans though). They were the the motorized infantry in the Division Legere Mécanique (DLM) and Division Legere de Cavalerie (DLC).The firepower of the squads was high since each was armed with two LMGs. The French Dragons Portes squad was designed to cover a large ground area and as such during initial planning for these units (in the early 30's), each squad received 2 LMGs. At the beginning, all squads were equipped with 2 vehicles carrying each 1 LMG and 7 men : in fact 1 half-squad of 6 men + 1 driver. So a Dragons Portés Squad squad had 12 men (1 VB launcher, 2 LMGs) and 2 vehicle. The problem was the number of vehicles. So a bigger vehicle has been designed (Laffly S20TL for the Dragons Portes) to carry the whole squad, but this time reduced to 10 men, keeping the same armament (1 VB launcher, 2 LMGs). Each Laffly S20TL was equiped with two AA mounts which could possibly be fitted on each aft corner, on each side, and on the center the first row of rear seats and the rest of the hull. The devices could accomodate either a FM 24/29 or a 8 mm Hotchkiss MG. However for combat, both LMGs were supposed to be used by the squad (only during transport would the LMGs be used in an AA role. (RDP = regiment de Dragons Portes).
Laffly S20TL = softskin vehicle also known as "VDP" for "voiture de Dragons Portés" = Dragons Portés's car. The vehicle were to be hidden quite far away from where the Dragons Portés were supposed to fight. French troops were surprised by the German Schützen + SPWs tactics which would usually dismount troops just before MG range. This also resulted in German APCs being destroyed by the French AT guns.


Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

Cheers

Thanks for the pics , I think the infantry are going to quadruple in size, I have alot to put a package together for the designer.

Dave

[Risaldar Singh]

Be careful with having too much of the wrong variety of French uniforms:

1. Contrary to what a lot of figure manufacturers think, the Dragons Portés motorised infantry did not wear the motorised troop helmet, they wore the Adrian 1926. I was one of the people who mistakenly said so to Peter Pig a long, long time ago on the basis of what a very serious collector had told me at the time. In fact, the motorised troop helmet (along with the Tenue de toile Mle 38) was only worn by the motorcycle troops, AFV crewmen and soft-skin vehicle drivers (BTW, dismounted mortorcycle troops such as the TQD figures above are very, very useful for the reconnaissance battalions). The dragons portés (along with mounted troops) basically looked like this:

or

Since the summer of 1940 was very warm, figures in the short tunic (the leather jacket was for motorcycle/AFV crewmen reenactors notwithstanding) with an Adrian helmet would be very useful.

2. I'd say forget about fortress infantry and their beret: by definition these troops manned underground bunkers so there is no good reason to see them on the tabletop (unless you model them with their hands up in surrendering pose). If outside, they would wear their helmets anyway.

For instance here is the uniform of a mountain fortress infantry unit, basically no different from plain old infantry:



3. Likewise, be wary of mountain troops and their nice large, beret as these were worn on parades and non-tactical photo ops but an Adrian helmet with or without cloth cover would be worn in combat. The main difference with normal infantry would be the Bergam rucksack rather than the sorry excuse of a backpack the rest of the infantry were saddled with. Here are some photos of Alpine troops in 1939/40:

On parade:


On campaign:




French mountain infantry and Foreign Legion for the Narvik campaign would be very interesting as it is pretty self contained but it would be very specific as these troops were equipped with experimental uniforms with a much more modern silhouette.

Chasseur (the rest of the article is reproduced here):


Legion:


Above all, I would say one of the most useful figures would be one horse cavalry, just the one pose would be enough since they fought dismounted:

[toxicpixie]

Those Chasseurs in "experimental uniforms" look remarkably like US infantry!

I wouldn't fiddle about in 10mm, but in larger scales would a head swap to an Adrian on a US infantry figure work, for the not massively purist looks about right at gaming distance levels of "work"?