WW2 help!

[ianjgow]

Just started ordering & painting British WW2 1944 for Peter Pig's Abteilung rules. This period is completely new to me & I am having some problem with the terminology ☺ Can anyone help with some basics, please?

Rules say Artillery Guns on table are treated as being in the AT role so are paid for & treated as anti-tank guns, but elsewhere it refers to Infantry Support Guns as different. What type of gun would be classed as an Infantry Support Gun & what for AT?

As for Field Artillery Tractors, I think I have read that the Morris Quad was right for 25pdrs but what would need an AEC Matador? & what is right for towing 6pdr or larger AT guns & the Bofors 40mm AA?

There is also a difference in Armoured Car by weight, Light Armoured with Light Gun, Medium Armoured with Medium Gun but I am having difficulty with which is which. I have ordered Daimler Armoured Cars, thinking they may be the light type but don't know what to use for the mediums.

I have tried browsing the net but everything I have accessed so far seems to assume a basic knowledge I just don't have so I would be grateful for any help anyone can give me. Then..... the Germans!

[Ithoriel]

Russians and Germans are more my thing so I'm sure more knowledgeable types will be along to give more info.

As a start, artillery tractors. Quads for 25pdrs right enough. Matadors for things like the 5.5" field guns. Carriers were often used as tows for the 6pdrs.

Not sure what the Brits would have as infantry guns. Germans have short barrelled 75mm and 150mm Infantry Guns and the Russians have similar weapons. Can't off the top of my head think of a British equivalent, doesn't mean there wasn't one of course. American supplied Pack Howitzers might fit the bill?

British antitank guns - 2pdr early war, upgrading to 6pdr as the war goes on and eventually 17pdrs.

British armoured cars - I assume the likes of the Daimler, AEC or Humber armoured cars would be mediums and the Dingo or Humber scout cars would be light.

Hope that helps, rather than confuses you further!

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

For 1944:
• infantry support guns - none (Germans used 7.5cm leIG18 and 15cm sIG33)
• AT guns - a few 2pdr in Italy, 6pdr in infantry battalions and some divisional AT batteries, 17pdr in divisional and corps AT batteries
• Tows: FAT e.g. Morris Quad for 25pdr and for 17pdr AT in infantry divisions, M5 half track or Crusader tractor for 17pdr in armoured divisions, Loyd carrier (sometimes Universal) as 6pdr tow. The AEC Matador was indeed a 5.5" gun and similar medium gun tractor.
• British armoured cars are complex:  scout cars: Daimler Dingo and Humber Scout; light recon cars: Morris or Humber LRC (infantry division Recce regiment); armoured cars: Humber IV with 37mm, Daimler Mk I with 2pdr, some US made M8 Greyhounds (mainly in Italy) with 37mm, some heavy support cars e.g. The AEC with 6pdr or 75mm guns.   Without knowing the definition of 'medium gun' it's a bit difficult to know.

Regards

Edward

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Agree with all the above.

[Ace of Spades]

Yep; Kustenjager is correct!

Cheers,
Rob

[toxicpixie]

Abteilung doesn't worry about "rivets" much - I'd class any lighter, 2pdr/37mm armed armoured car as a Light AC with Light gun, and the AEC heavy as Medium with Medium gun The scout/recce cars don't really fit in with their definitions as the recce unit on table top is kind of "fighting recce", but you could use them as Light ones at a pinch - or use them scatter about as command vehicles - can't remember if the units have command models in!

No "infantry gun" in Commonwealth use as such, the trusty 3" mortar is in its role. That said, I guess you could put the 3" or 75mm pack howitzer the Airborne used as one if you were desperate to field one?

[Hertsblue]

The British 3.7" Mountain Howitzer was used in Tunisia, Italy and Burma and probably fits the "infantry gun" definition. Don't know the rules so can't say for certain.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Sorry - but no. The 3.7 was used to replace the 25pdrs where they were too heavy. Pre war they were issued to brigade batteries, but these were gone by '39. The only purpose built IG was the 95mm, which was never issued.

Armoured Cars - the Armoured Car Rgts in NWE had Damilers as their armoured car - except the Canadians who used Staghound 1's, with either Dingo or Humber scout cars, again the Canadians used something different, the - the Lynx, but this looks like a Dingo. SHQ and RHQ used either Staghounds, or Humber Mk III. Heavy cars would be AEC MkIII, or very late on Staghound III. (That is a Staghound with a Crusader III Turret fitted with a 75mm) In Italy it's a bit different, certainly the AEC was replaced by a 75mm M3 GMC.

Infantry Div Recce Rgts used a Humber Lt Recce Car - a vehicle with a Boys ATR and LMG, along with lot's of carriers.

Gun Tractors - The Field arty and AT artillery used Quads if soft towed, infantry AT guns had either Loyd or Universal Carriers, although the 2pdr was often porteed on a 30cwt in the desert. 17pdr tractors were converted from these. Armoured tows for the 17 was either the Crusader tractor or M5 1/2 track (in Italy).

Medium Arty Rgts used matadors, or similar class vehicles

Above that it varies, but big lorries seems to be the rule.

IanS

[toxicpixie]

It's not so much "official TOE" we're worried about with the Commonwealth "infantry gun" question, as whether it would count as an infantry gun in game terms; as above the "infantry gun" in Commonwealth use/doctrinal terms was effectively the 3" mortar. As you say the actual gun equivalent was long gone by '39.

If you were desperate to use an Infantry Gun in Abteilung for Commonwealth forces, I'd suggest a 3" mortar instead, or in appropriate theatre and force you could swap it for a 75mm/3" gun but as Ian says, it's not really the same thing in doctrine/as far as the official organisation & use was concerned.

It's similar with the armoured cars - the rules divide them into light ACs with Light Guns or Medium ACs with Medium Guns. I'd suggest the big AECs (and as Ian says the late Staghound & possibly the M3 GMC with 75mm) be Medium ones, and everything else be Light - the 2pdr definitely doesn't warrant more than that The light recce cars aren't really covered in the rules, as IIRC the recce command/unit is a "fighting recce" sort of formation. I'd use them for colour though - scattered on command bases, for FAOs etc.

[Rob]

Hi Ian, welcome to the forum.  

The on table / off table categorisation I assume is a rules specific convenience because some artillery such as Russian ZIS-3 divisional field guns (76.2mm) can be used in both roles, so I think it is saying all "artillery" is off table and anything "on table" is an anti-tank gun.  

As already mentioned British do not use infantry support guns. This is because the British do not need them. The British army in WW2 had the most responsive artillery of any nation and as an army it was the most firepower orientated. It could produce greater firepower in a shorter time than any other. Typically each battalion would have close support from an 8 gun 25pdr battery (2 troops of 4 guns each). The battery commander would position himself at the battalion headquarters he was supporting to ensure very close and responsive cooperation.

You will find most rules will not allow this and assume all armies are equal which they definitely were not. So if you may need to tweak the rules to allow British to use 25pdrs as off table infantry guns,

Had a quick look at a review of the rules and it says they are a brigade level set. At  brigade level in 1944 a British attacking brigade would have the support of  3 * 25pdr regiments from its own division (72 guns), thickened up by general support of the neighbouring divisions artillery and at least one AGRA which would contain more 25pdr regiments and multiple regiments of medium, heavy and super-heavy artillery. They could also call on heavy bombers to carpet bomb the erea before an attack.

Hope this helps.  

Look at this site for guidance on WW2 armies:
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/017_britain/__uk.htm
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/000_admin/000oob.htm

This site may help with armour questions but its not particularly good an armoured cars:
http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php

Look at this site for artillery basics:
(Nik edit - removed this...)

Look at this site for battalion organisation:
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/index.htm

Cheers, Rob  

[Rob]

Ooops. I checked the links after posting and found the artillery link has an unwanted redirect. Can you edit this link out please moderator / Leon. In the mean time it can be deleted by using task manager.

Sorry, Rob 

[nikharwood]

Ooops. I checked the links after posting and found the artillery link has an unwanted redirect. Can you edit this link out please moderator / Leon. In the mean time it can be deleted by using task manager.

Sorry, Rob 

Done - if you find another link, we can drop it in there 

[Rob]

Done - if you find another link, we can drop it in there 

Thanks. I PM'd Nigel to let him know, he is a Tank-Net member as well. I am unaware of any other links because that was Nigel's own link. If he fixes it I'll let you know.

[ianjgow]

Thanks for all the responses. I decided to get into this period as a pleasant diversion so was looking to Abteilung as a more abstract set of rules but have to keep reminding myself not to get lost in the minutiae but it's so damned hard :$ For now, I just want to be able to field the unit types represented in the rules & start playing, so all the comments so far have been very helpful.

Cheers!

i

[toxicpixie]

Just play in the spirit of Peter Pig rules (it's the enjoying the game that counts, with period flavour derived from the overall rules and result than the minutia of procedure) and you'll be fine

Just don't get hung up on the mass of technical detail