10mm bears

Started by Pockets, 17 July 2010, 09:31:36 PM

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FierceKitty

Under the circumstances, they'd be getting off lightly with decimation. I'd think annihilation more likely.
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Maenoferren

Errrr that hill was nearer 60° than 45°... Riding down a 45 degree slope holding a lance  means you are lying backwards over the the horse...oh and there was no galloping involved....
Sometimes I wonder - why is that frisbee geting bigger - and then it hits me!

Dunnadd

24 January 2015, 05:50:58 PM #137 Last Edit: 24 January 2015, 05:57:28 PM by Dunnadd
Quote from: Ithoriel on 24 January 2015, 01:50:32 AM
While Swiss pike were, in their day, quite formidable I don't imagine they would have stood much of a chance if the French or Burgundian cavalry charge had been lead by the archangel Michael. Which is pretty much the situation in LOTR.

Fair point, Gandalf is a maia, pretty much a demi-god, but there's no mention in the book of him using any magic, nor of the orcs/half orcs/uruks/dunlendings being formed up with pikes.

Magic in middle earth is usually used sparingly even by wizards and other powerful magic users, with its use exhausting them quickly (at least in the Third Age). Doubt any magic user had the power to make a whole army of horsemen capable of riding down pikemen who were facing them (still less on the very steep slope shown in the film, as others have pointed out).

In the book it was the combination of a whole forest of ents and huorns turning up, combined with the Rohirrim attack led by Gandalf and Eomer that broke Saruman's forces morale, not just one cavalry charge.

Techno wrote
QuoteWere Swiss pike much harder than others of their kin, because the lakes they lived in, were so much colder for most of the year ?

I'm sure that wasn't a minnowmal factor. Also living at higher altitudes they'd have more stamina. They'd still be full of energy when the enemy were floundering due to exhaustion, leaving them open to terrible injuries which would require the attentions of a sturgeon at the least, an undertaker at worst.

toxicpixie

No mention in the book, true - but then that charge is very different in the book! In the film the cavalry charge down a very steep slope covered in rubble at speed (although in slow-mo, they're moving pretty darn fast - and as maenoferren points out they're lying almost flat back as they do!). No one falls, let alone the whole lot end up as a pile of lasagne at the bottom as would likely happen "in reality". And then, before they hit, the light not only blinds the Uruks but causes them to drop pikes, and break formation. Even then I'd expect quite a lot if injury from piling horses into such a mass BUT THE ONLY PEOPLE HURT ARE ORCS!

Now, that's an exact fit for how the most powerful "good" magic tends to work in middle-earth. The divinely protected just roll on through with seemingly "natural" effects mysteriously embuggering the bad guys allowing ten to be chopped down at will. See Elronds "whoops, a major river just went into a tsunami and swept away a whole passle of ring wraiths" or even the crossing of care idris where mysterious weather suddenly appeared and hey look it winter and we're forced off to Moria...

Sorry, bit shouty there - but whether it's entirely true to the book or not, the charge in the film is quite clearly divinely protected both from terrain and injury, whilst the pike is broken even before contact. All courtesy of Gandalf the "Hey look I'm now a divine being who can use his powers, someone hold my mead & watch this lads!" White :)

Otherwise it'd be rohirrim-kebab and welcome to Helms Deep, home of industry and commerce.
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Dunnadd

24 January 2015, 08:25:36 PM #139 Last Edit: 24 January 2015, 08:56:50 PM by Dunnadd
 ;D yes, maybe, fair point , but the film is RONG, RONG, RONG, should've been like it was in the book etc.

I didn't interpret it as Gandalf using magic in the film, but just as one of Jackson's stupid special effects scenes where he thinks his imagination is better than Tolkein's and is wrong.

e.g in the final film of The Hobbit , there's a scene where Legolas runs off an old bridge faster than it can collapse into a chasm. Legolas has no magical powers, but Jackson still has him doing something which destroys any possibility of suspending disbelief, presumably on the theory that it looks impressive (it doesn't, it looks terrible). The charge at Helm's Deep in the Two Towers film isn't quite as bad, but still seemed like the same kind of thing to me.

I could be wrong though, could be meant to be Gandalf using magic in the film. EDIt - watching a clip on youtube, there is bright light for a moment from Gandalf during the charge and orcs seeming to be blinded by it, but their pikes are still levelled

And so, i put it to you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, that Peter Jackson must be made to pay for his crimes against Tolkien, crimes ten times worse than the Holocaust, and that the only sentence that will provide justice would be his death, torn apart by a giant bear, while dressed as Bolg son of Azog, as part of a much better remake of The Battle of the Five Armies.

fsn

Can't believe there's a discussion about how wrong it is for horses to be charging downhill, when you can accept tiny fellows with hairy feet, a ring that makes the wearer invisible and a flippin' dragon!

They're magic horses!
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Dunnadd

24 January 2015, 08:46:23 PM #141 Last Edit: 24 January 2015, 09:01:38 PM by Dunnadd
Those are all consistent with the world of Middle Earth in the Sacred Lore of Tolkien. Fantasy doesn't have to be consistent with the real world, but it does have to be internally consistent.

QuoteThey're magic horses

They aren't meant to be magic horses. Not even Shadowfax. Even the horses the ring wraiths ride are just black horses they had stolen from the Rohirrim. Strong breeds of horses and Shadowfax from the strongest (Meara) but not magical. I think the only magical horse in the books of LOTR is maybe The Mouth of Sauron's horse

toxicpixie

I enjoyed the Lotr films and most of the tweaks were fine. Shame they cut out the Barriw Downs but then they'd have had to include Tom Bombadill ;)

However, back to the point - the Rohirrim should hve been mounted on bears. They wouldn't have needed divine intervention then!
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Dunnadd

 ;D

I enjoyed most of the LOTR films even if i'd have preferred they'd stuck closer to the books. Hated bits of them (e.g the running down collapsing stair case bit in Moria, because obviously running through dark tunnels from a horde of orcs and trolls wasn't dramatic enough).

The Hobbit films, much worse. Still some good bits in them, but the reverse of the LOTR films, more bad stuff than good. The goblin gate and great goblin scenes in the (second?) Hobbit film were just terrible. And the battle in the Battle of the Five Armies, after an ok start, went rapidly downhill into unwatchable crap.

FierceKitty

I suppose people remember Yoshitsune's attack down a supposedly impassable cliff at Itchi no Tani? The key point there, however, is that it wasn't a charge, but a manouevre that put the Minamoto (Genji) forces in the rear of the Taira (Heike), who thought the position was secure.

I'd like to dub a line or two into the books and the movies alike: "We will win, Frodo, and against impossible odds, because the author has put it into the story, trumping any other argument."

Come to think of it, I might enjoy a rule like that in some of my games.
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.

fsn

Quote from: Dunnadd on 24 January 2015, 08:46:23 PM
They aren't meant to be magic horses.

I know. I was just pointing out the irony of worrying about horses charging down hill and accepting the other more fantastic elements of the books and films.

It's like a few years ago when DC comics received a letter from an angry reader who complained that Catwoman would be unable to be so acrobatic with such a large chest. They replied "but you accept a man can fly, and another can make giant shapes with his will and a third can shrink to less than the size of an atom."
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

FierceKitty

I understand that an indignant clergyman published a letter in an 18th-century newspaper complaining about Gulliver's Travels, saying that he "hardly believed a word of it."
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.

toxicpixie

Suspension of disbelief can be broken by the oddest of things. The paucity of women always gets me about Tolkien, but the films do readdress that a little (go Team Arwen!). The charge in question is one that makes me wince. The only way I can rationalise it is by the light that shines from/around/behind the Robirrim and Gandalf is Gandalf using a bit of divine wizardry. Otherwise 60 degree slope, full on charge would smash up at the bottom even before they hit the supposedly steady and waiting pike hedge!
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fsn

Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

toxicpixie

Divinely protected by a greater angelic being horses, sure :)
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