Q of the Week: 10mm within the hierarchy of scales?

Started by Leon, 28 June 2010, 07:33:53 PM

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Aart Brouwer

Quote from: Leon on 29 June 2010, 09:41:40 PM
I've never tried that!  There should be some somewhere though, we've got a customer who buys the gliders, and V1/2's, paints them up and sells them on eBay?

Pro painters are to be expected - and they are welcome. But my point stands that nobody dumps their P. stuff on eBay by the dozen like they dump their 15 mils or 6 mils.

Cheers,
Aart
Sadly no longer with us - RIP (1958-2013)

"No, I do not have Orcs, Riders of Rohan, Dark Elves, Skaven, Kroot Mercenaries Battle Tech, HeroClix, Gangs of Mega-City One or many-horned f****** genetic-mechanoid arse-faced pigmen from the Purple Pustule of Tharg T bloody M." (Harry Pearson, Achtung Schweinehund!)

Last Hussar

Quote10mm within the hierarchy of scales?
I'd say not as tall as 15s, but almost twice as tall as 6mm.

I started in 10s with Chariot Miniatures from The Guardroom in Dunstable- they were cheaper than 15s.  that was 16 odd years ago.  Now I am (a little) richer I am going to rebase them into far tighter formations- more to a base (and better bases), so at some point I will be ordering some re-inforcements, though I'm not sure how yours will compare size wise.

9 years ago I bought two armies from SkyTrex 1:200 for Rapid Fire.  When I bought Pendraken for PBI you can really notice the difference. The infantry are same size, but the 1:200 are spindley - I think they may be in proportion and P-d stuff 'chubby', but yours looks better (and has more detail).  The problem I have is vehiclesP-d PzIIIs are noticably bigger than Skytrex PzIV - I know 1:200 / 1:160(ish), but like I say the infantry are really close.

I think what kicked 10mm off is Warmaster.  Despite 10s being around for years it became the next big new thing! (I waited 20 years to become an overnight success).  People saw what a good game WMF was, and there were loads of Ancients/Medieval conversions well before WMA.  This is when I hit 10mm properly.  After 3 fantasy armies from GW, I bought a Roman army for WMA (best customer service ever was from P-d "What kind of Roman army, Republican, early Imperial, Late Imperial?", "Hollywood" "I know exactly what you mean" - and they did!)

I think people are now getting used to them.  The 'niche' thing is I feel due to old hands already having 6s and 15s- its like the "So I have to rebuy all my music AGAIN?" thing with new formats, except more time consuming.  I  think more people will consider it as they enter a new period, like my club do - well some of us anyway. All my future 'mass battle' will be 10mm (except for one boyhood dream of peninsula 28s)  The legion is 6x2 on the 40mm bases, and some friends now admit they should have spent a little extra to bulk out the standard 30 figure packs for their ancients (though Auxillary stay as 10 man bases).

The biggest problem to further expansion is the 'not played here'- as has been noted old hands have 15s so people buy 15s to match.

10s may be helped by Black Powder- as it is such scope people may be tempted to try new periods (because they already have the rules), and migrate to 10s because of cost - £60/3 army packs gets you a complete BP army (12-13 infantry bns, 4 Cavalry regts and 6 guns).  It gets you 50 28mm metals (= 4 units), or 200 15mm (10 inf units at best).  Also once you have painted 10mm you realise how easy and quick it is, as well as easier to store ("Very Useful Boxes" turn out to be Very Useful!).

I can see 10mm pulling customers from 6mm and 15mm
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

Hurley

30 June 2010, 02:16:33 AM #17 Last Edit: 30 June 2010, 02:19:30 AM by Hurley
10mm could become a power house if you:

put a painted picture next to each name.
Put a base with it.
Sell in terms of rules sets.

Right now a new player has to:
Find your site.
Figure out what they need. ( I want a German mechanized infantry platoon)
Figure out what they are looking at (eg. Everyone knows what a half-track is but what is it called here and which of the half-tracks is what i want)
Figure out if they can use this for the rules they want to play. ( ok I need 3 half-tracks with mg, 1 with a at gun, 4 stands of infantry)
Convert names of units to sku numbers (type of half-track (Google search) and number of guys and what equipment to use (Google search))
Buy minis
Buy bases
paint
Play game.

what you want it to be is (GW PP and BF):
Find your site.
Figure out what they need. ( I want a German mechanized infantry platoon)
Find unit under rules type and picture to make 100% sure of purchase.  
buy unit
paint
play game.  

The BKC packs are great but I got to alt tab between Google search and your site a lot to figure out what is in them.
warning up salt amounts when talking to this person.

Leon

Quote from: Last Hussar on 30 June 2010, 01:43:28 AM
I think what kicked 10mm off is Warmaster.  Despite 10s being around for years it became the next big new thing! (I waited 20 years to become an overnight success).  People saw what a good game WMF was, and there were loads of Ancients/Medieval conversions well before WMA.  This is when I hit 10mm properly.  After 3 fantasy armies from GW, I bought a Roman army for WMA (best customer service ever was from P-d "What kind of Roman army, Republican, early Imperial, Late Imperial?", "Hollywood" "I know exactly what you mean" - and they did!)

I think people are now getting used to them.  The 'niche' thing is I feel due to old hands already having 6s and 15s- its like the "So I have to rebuy all my music AGAIN?" thing with new formats, except more time consuming.  I  think more people will consider it as they enter a new period, like my club do - well some of us anyway. All my future 'mass battle' will be 10mm (except for one boyhood dream of peninsula 28s)  The legion is 6x2 on the 40mm bases, and some friends now admit they should have spent a little extra to bulk out the standard 30 figure packs for their ancients (though Auxillary stay as 10 man bases).

("Very Useful Boxes" turn out to be Very Useful!).

I can see 10mm pulling customers from 6mm and 15mm

Cheers for that. It'd be nice if we could attract a share of the 15mm market.  Price-wise, you get so much more for your money.  And they are 'Really Useful Boxes'!  I've got a load of them around the house.
www.pendraken.co.uk - Now home to over 7000 products, including 4500 items for 10mm wargaming, plus MDF bases, Battlescale buildings, I-94 decals, Litko Gaming Aids, Militia Miniatures, Raiden Miniatures 1/285th aircraft, Red Vectors MDF products, Vallejo paints and much, much more!

Leon

Quote from: Hurley on 30 June 2010, 02:16:33 AM
10mm could become a power house if you:

put a painted picture next to each name.
Put a base with it.
Sell in terms of rules sets.

Right now a new player has to:
Find your site.
Figure out what they need. ( I want a German mechanized infantry platoon)
Figure out what they are looking at (eg. Everyone knows what a half-track is but what is it called here and which of the half-tracks is what i want)
Figure out if they can use this for the rules they want to play. ( ok I need 3 half-tracks with mg, 1 with a at gun, 4 stands of infantry)
Convert names of units to sku numbers (type of half-track (Google search) and number of guys and what equipment to use (Google search))
Buy minis
Buy bases
paint
Play game.

what you want it to be is (GW PP and BF):
Find your site.
Figure out what they need. ( I want a German mechanized infantry platoon)
Find unit under rules type and picture to make 100% sure of purchase.  
buy unit
paint
play game.  

The BKC packs are great but I got to alt tab between Google search and your site a lot to figure out what is in them.

Some interesting points there.

The pictures next to every code is something we are working on.  I know it might seem like it's taking ages, but we are working as fast as we can through them.  Hopefully the pictures people are posting on here are helping somewhat.

With bases, we've never sold them until recently, but the problem is that people want different bases depending on what rules they are using.  So offering them as an extra seemed the best way to go.  We could add some bases to the BKC packs I suppose, but would people want to pay more money if they have no intention of using the bases?

The same could be said for making armies based on rules.  Thre are so many sets out there that you'd have to fill the site with different armies, to cater for everyone.  We've put armies up for the most popular rulests (WM and BKC), but even these sell only occasionally.  It seems most people prefer to build their own armies from the lists.  Now there could be an argument there that they would be more inclined to buy them if the descriptions were better?  We could look at changing them to show descriptions of what's in the pack, instead of a load of codes.

Another thing which could be of some use, is a short piece of info about each model.  It's something we'd like to have in an ideal world, but is going to require a lot of research, and structural changes to the website, so it wouldn't be done any time soon.
www.pendraken.co.uk - Now home to over 7000 products, including 4500 items for 10mm wargaming, plus MDF bases, Battlescale buildings, I-94 decals, Litko Gaming Aids, Militia Miniatures, Raiden Miniatures 1/285th aircraft, Red Vectors MDF products, Vallejo paints and much, much more!

Hurley

Well you could easily keep the "build your own thing" you have now and just add this. As for basing BKc really does not care what size base you use so just get a base that works with an other large rule set and put them in cost is like 18 cent each add on to the miniature.  No Big woop over the price and most guys will use what is in the bag. This no base thing is kinda geared toward not the new gamer it's very weird coming from the finished product world of gw and pp.   
warning up salt amounts when talking to this person.

Aart Brouwer

Quote from: Hurley on 30 June 2010, 07:40:19 AM
[..] coming from the finished product world of gw and pp.   

Seems like a different planet to me - but then I am a newbie in wargaming and I like to work things out for myself. How hard can it be to buy some 1mm pvc sheet and cut your own bases exactly as you like them?

However, you speak from long experience and you obviously make a good point one which is usually lost on enthousiasts like myself. The point being that only ready-made stuff creates the sort of buyer mass you need to expand your business and expand your ranges.

Cheers,
Aart
Sadly no longer with us - RIP (1958-2013)

"No, I do not have Orcs, Riders of Rohan, Dark Elves, Skaven, Kroot Mercenaries Battle Tech, HeroClix, Gangs of Mega-City One or many-horned f****** genetic-mechanoid arse-faced pigmen from the Purple Pustule of Tharg T bloody M." (Harry Pearson, Achtung Schweinehund!)

Derek H

Then there's the problem that some of your ranges have big holes in them.

Leon

The website does have functions to create 'Recommended Items' lists, depending on what's being bought, so we could link the bases to the various Army Packs.

I think the Dungeon Pack we're putting together will be a good indicator of whether people want everything included in one item.  If it sells well, then we might look at doing the same thing with other ranges.

Quote from: Derek H on 30 June 2010, 02:36:20 PM
Then there's the problem that some of your ranges have big holes in them.

They do, and we will try to fill as many of the major ones as we can.  There was a discussion on here a while back though, that can a range ever be complete?
www.pendraken.co.uk - Now home to over 7000 products, including 4500 items for 10mm wargaming, plus MDF bases, Battlescale buildings, I-94 decals, Litko Gaming Aids, Militia Miniatures, Raiden Miniatures 1/285th aircraft, Red Vectors MDF products, Vallejo paints and much, much more!

Blaker

I would guess that 10mm in behind 15s and 25s but ahead of 20s and currently tied with 6s in the hierachy of scales.

What the 10mm scale needs is more exposure. Exposure through, articles in gaming mags, adds in gaming mags, more participation games at shows, sponsoring prizes for tournaments at shows.  Pictures and more Pictures of your minis is very important and you are making great efforts in that direction. The Flickr account might need to be better organized to find the minis you are looking for than what is currently setup. PR is the real need right now for the 10mm scale. You can box all the "ready made armies" you like but if you dont advertise, they will just sit there unsold.  Pendraken has a great range of minis available and yes many are incomplete ranges which should be completed before brand new ranges are offered, IMHO.  However, having said that, getting my hands on some 10mm Aztecs or Incas would be great ;D

The main problem with the 10mm scale other than lack of exposure, is that the main gamers as said before are already invested in 15 and 25 ranges and getting them to move to another scale is daunting. That is why exposure is soooo important, 10mm needs to grab that new gamer or one that has not already invested heavily in 15 or 25 and you grab them by advertising. Man, it would be nice if I worked for an advertising firm, but that is not the case  :(

I am slowly converting 15mm players to 10mm by running games at the club providing both sides of battle with 10mm.  Some are slowly purchasing some 10s to experiment with their painting skills. But it is hard to compete with 35 gamers that already have completed and painted 15mm armies for their rules they play and get them to start new armies for those rules in 10mm.

I have slowly been selling off my 15s and replacing them with 10s, I know not everyone can do that and my painting eyes are not as good as they use to be but I do like the look of 10s on the tabletop.

I believe that if the 10mm scale ranges continue to grow in both completing existing ranges and developing new ranges, more will move to 10s if they see more being used. In the UK, that would be more games at shows using 10mm. Leon, you might even think about sponsoring a 10mm DBA tournament where all armies are 10mm and have a juicy enough prize for gamers to purchase, paint and play in the tournament.  DBA armies are the least expensive way for a gamer to dab his toe into the scale without investing loads of money. Once there, it might be all they need to continue with 10s  :D

Sorry for the long post, I need to get back to packaging up 20 DBA War of the Roses army packs for school!!!
cya

Leon

Thanks for all that Blake!

People are right, the 10mm scale does need more exposure through the magazines and some online articles, to get people to switch over.  If I ever manage to find the time, I'll have a go at doing an article, and see if I can get it into the mags.

Sponsoring a tournament could be a good idea.  I've considered sponsoring some display games at the bigger shows.  We'd need to find some clubs willing to get into 10mm and put on the game for us.
www.pendraken.co.uk - Now home to over 7000 products, including 4500 items for 10mm wargaming, plus MDF bases, Battlescale buildings, I-94 decals, Litko Gaming Aids, Militia Miniatures, Raiden Miniatures 1/285th aircraft, Red Vectors MDF products, Vallejo paints and much, much more!

Leon

I've just tidied up the Flickr account a little bit as well!
www.pendraken.co.uk - Now home to over 7000 products, including 4500 items for 10mm wargaming, plus MDF bases, Battlescale buildings, I-94 decals, Litko Gaming Aids, Militia Miniatures, Raiden Miniatures 1/285th aircraft, Red Vectors MDF products, Vallejo paints and much, much more!

Last Hussar

I've never come across an army pack that has exactly what I want, and usually end up buying extras to round it out.  I wouldn't buy a Peter Pig Black Box, because I'd end up buying extra figures, and not using some of those in the box, to get the unit I want. I'd probably spend more than any saving I made.

The GW approach is fine for figures linked to a rules set.  Pendraken isn't linked to a ruleset, though many of the ranges do have pack for a specified set. 

I think Hurley is being over-critical.  It appears he wants a pack per organisation per rule set.
QuoteFigure out what they need. ( I want a German mechanized infantry platoon)
Find unit under rules type

So how many in the platoon - different rules have different amounts, and they are listed in the army lists.

Also what size bases?  I don't want to pay extra for bases I won't use.
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

Luddite

Quote from: Hurley on 30 June 2010, 07:40:19 AM
Well you could easily keep the "build your own thing" you have now and just add this. As for basing BKc really does not care what size base you use so just get a base that works with an other large rule set and put them in cost is like 18 cent each add on to the miniature.  No Big woop over the price and most guys will use what is in the bag. This no base thing is kinda geared toward not the new gamer it's very weird coming from the finished product world of gw and pp.   

Not wierd at all.

I use Pendraken figures with lots of different rule sets, each with different basing. 

I source the bases i need from specialist suppliers like Warbases or ERM.

I really like that i don't have to buy a bunch of clutter i don't need.  With Pendraken i get almost precisely the figures i need.

Take GW plastics.  After clipping off all the figures, there's more plastic sprue left than actual figure!  That's money i've just thrown in the bin!  Not to mention all the other packaging... >:(

Now then, as to the OP...

I think it's undeniable that 10mm is a niche scale.  We ourselves are recent converts and loving it, and there's always a lot of interest at the club.

However, i suspect that 28mm and 15mm will remain dominant given their legacy popularity and mass of investment most gamers have already given to the scales.

That said, trends are likely to change i suspect...and i've certainly seen an increase in 1:72nd plastics lately.

The rise in 10mm-focussed rule sets lately (here i'm looking at 'XX Commander' and Warmaster) will certainly help the popularity of the scale.  I've also just picked up Age of Eagles and am chomping at the bit for the release of your Napoleonic ranges!!!

You'll of course know that 10m figures are army-driven (rather than display).  Therefore my suggestion for Pendraken is to release ranges that supply the army lists from those two rulesets.  But then, what do i know?

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Derk G

Quote from: Leon on 30 June 2010, 03:18:03 PM
The website does have functions to create 'Recommended Items' lists, depending on what's being bought, so we could link the bases to the various Army Packs.

I think the Dungeon Pack we're putting together will be a good indicator of whether people want everything included in one item.  If it sells well, then we might look at doing the same thing with other ranges.

They do, and we will try to fill as many of the major ones as we can.  There was a discussion on here a while back though, that can a range ever be complete?

No a range will never truly be complete I guess.

However, when there's still things missing that belong in each and every line squad, then it's an issue.  Once all the basics are there, then the rest is cool and nice-to-have.

Derk