Q of the Week: 10mm within the hierarchy of scales?

[Leon]

This weeks question jumps away from Historical debate, and into wargaming itself.

Where do you see the 10mm scale within the hierarchy of wargaming?  Is it a niche scale that a lot of people will always refuse to try, or is it the future of compact, value-for-money wargaming?  What are the top 5 scales people are using?  And finally, what does the future hold for 10mm?

Now I know I'm asking this to a load of 10mm fans, but I'm looking for some good objective opinions here!

[Steve J]

Love them or loathe them, Battlefronts 15mm range re-invigorated WWII wargaming according to Peter Pig. It certainly got me back into historical wargames .

At our club (Portbury Knights) 15mm and 28mm are the dominant scales. 6mm is used for CWC and a few members use 20mm for WWII. IIRC, 10mm is widely used for Warmaster Ancients but not really for WWII. This mainly due to a lot of members having fixed views with regards to 10mm and also already having 15mm battlegroups already painted. With 15mm a member can play PBI, FoW and BKC and find plenty of other players to play against.

I think therefore that 6mm and 10mm are currently niche markets, based upon my experience, that provide value for money and still look great on the wargames table.

15mm is to me what 1/72 and 1/76 was in the 70's, namely widely used and widely available.

20mm is rarely, if ever seen at our club. Suprisingly at local bring and buys, there is still an awful lot of 20mm wargames out there. Conversely 6mm and 10mm are very rarely seen.

28mm is widely used from Ancients all the way up to Sci-Fi and Fantasy, from skirmish level games all the way up to BP battles on 12'x6' tables.

As for the future of 10mm? I think a lot more coverage in trade magazines would help overcome entrenched views on scales, but a lot ultimately depends upon waht scale you friends and club already use. If I was to start again from scratch it would be 6mm or 10mm for me.

[nikharwood]

Interesting question...

For me - and I am overwhelmingly (unfortunately) a solo-gamer:

When I got back into gaming as an adult (ie with my own disposable income) it was with 28mm (GW) for sci-fi & fantasy (40k, WFB, Mordheim, Necromunda) - and then GW released Warmaster: with 10mm figures: suddenly massed-battles and 'proper' vagaries of command & control were 'real'.

Over time, becoming less interested in the GW rollercoaster & more inclined to historical gaming - but *loving* the 10mm WM figures - I decided on using the core WM rules (because I loved them so much) as the basis of my gaming: which led me to NapoleonicMaster - and my first foray into Pendraken: armies for the Peninsular which I still love & play with...

In turn,that led me to Blitzkrieg Commander: and it was a no-brainer to continue with Pendraken as I was so pleased with my Naps - this led me inexorably to more & more 10mm WW2 - and then to a 'place' on Pete's moderns testing team for CWC - including some painting work for him for rulebook photos - which, in turn, led to similar playtest / painting involvement with FWC & then BKC II....

Life in 10mm is good: I've had some dabbling with WMA 10mm armies (now sold for a *serious* profit) & also a few dalliances with 2mm & 6mm where there is no 10mm available...I dream of the day when I can do *everything* in 10mm! I should also point out that I pick up quite a bit of painting commission work in 10mm (which is nice)

A bit rambling there - but 10mm is v good for a load of things...

Although I should also mention that I do like 28mm still for skirmishing - and for when I really do want to obsess over painting!

[lentulus]

Well, I am the only 10mm collector around here.  I won't say "gamer" because lots of folks enjoy gaming with my kit and I have never minded fielding both sides.  If 10mm is niche, though, it's because the "old guys" are already heavily invested in other scales.  I am an exception because I did a complete restart a few years ago.

The SYW start has convinced me that I am able to paint quite large armies in this scale - I was not sure just doing the WWII since it takes so few figures to make an army.  After I have these lads at a really good strength, then FPW or ACW - not sure which.  But I never expect to run into another 10mm player here; did in London, but then you can find anything in London.

[Leon]

Interesting stuff.  Do you think then, that 10mm will steadily become more popular as the ranges on offer increase?  Or what if there were more rulesets based around 10mm?

[Steve J]

I think a greater range will undoubtably help, especially with core gaming areas such as Napoleonics. I have no idea as to the breadth of the Magister Militum range, but that is popular at the club for WMA. I think more army packs would certainly help based around say WMA, BKC etc.

As for rulesets, 10mm works perfectly fine for FoW, PBI and the BKC stable. I think the power of the Battlefront marketing machine makes it very hard to convince gamers to try 10mm. Some gamers percieve 10mm as not being very detailed compared to 15mm, but having seen the amazing detail on the WWII Brits, they are more than on a par.

Again, may be an article in the wargaming press showing cost comparisons, details, pics of games in progress may help change entrenched attitudes.

[CATenWolde]

I don't think it's primarily a rules issue, so much as it is a relatively new scale competing with existing collections, and the usual run of factors people run into with group projects.

Going back about eight years ago or so, when I first was introduced to 10mm figures, there were two eras that commonly featured 10mm games at conventions in the States: ACW and WWII. Both are relatively big eras, and showed off the potential for the scale very well. 10mm remains one of the standard choices for ACW and is well established there I think, and is one of the top choices for WWII. Given that 10mm isn't really competing against 25mm+ figures used in skirmish games, it's really a question of competing against 5mm and 15mm figures. Before the advent of Battlefront, people were talking about selling off 15mm and going to 10mm pretty regularly; however, how many of the BF people are new to the period is hard to say, but the "package" deal of the rules and packages on store shelves would be hard to replicate. If Pendraken WWII sales are going strong (as they appear to be), then it might be a case of "a rising tide lifts all ships" and increased interest in the period eventually leaking over into increased 10mm sales as people move on. The contrast between the cost and scale and quality of the 15mm figures and the 10mm offerings might also actually help establish 10mm as the viable alternative. Thinking about the active BKC forums, the debate is pretty much between 5mm and 10mm, with 15mm out of the picture.

So, the original pair of periods seem to be staying popular, and even growing.

Since it is a relatively new scale in other periods, you're really facing the challenge of getting gamers to either give up or duplicate existing collections, or attracting new gamers. Ancients are much more tournament minded than most other periods, and so more scale dependent, and I could see that era being unfortunately a little more difficult for other scales to penetrate into. On the other hand, I think Pendraken has the right idea in focusing on the H&M period and all of its various sub-periods. There is a wide range of non-tournament gaming in these periods, and for the most part basing is pretty flexible and ground scale favors the smaller ranges - with the advantages of 10mm over 5mm showing through in the uniform detail that defines the period. Even if people already have existing collections, there is always another H&M period or sub-period to collect and play.

Having said all that ... the big question is why didn't Old Glory crush everybody else when they released their flood of ranges over a couple of years? Although they may be popular choices, I think the continuing issues are the basing style (strips versus individual figures), sometimes strangely incomplete ranges, and a bit of inconsistency in both basing and sculpting. Another manufacturer to make a big splash in 10mm recently is of course Magister Militum, and while I don't know what their impact has been, I'll hazard a guess that the simple issue of aesthetic quality has handicapped their figures. Then, in contrast, you see very good sculpts like Bend Sinister's new Austrian and Russian releases hampered by slow release schedules, doubtless a result of uncertain economic times.

The lessons? I think the success of some of Pendraken's newer H&M lines, as well as the continuing support for the SYW line, reinforces the simple truth that if you give gamers good sculpts, complete lines, and base and organize sales to play to the strength of the periods in play, they will continue to be tempted. Since 10mm is relatively new and there are compatibility issues between the few existing lines with overlaps, it is unfortunately even more important for lines to be complete. I know this places an additional burden on the producer (in contrast to say 28mm producers who can hit and miss), but while being an important issue it probably also encourages "one stop shopping" sort of brand loyalty.

In terms of spreading the word about the scale, why not encourage some articles with nice photos and maps in either print or on-line journals/forums that contrast the two different approaches that 10mm offers? Either you can stay with the larger scaled base sizes ad have more figures, or you can reduce base sizes and get more "map for the table". If you go to 10mmWorld.com and look at the "10mm TSATF" page in the Articles section, you get a (crude) idea of what I am talking about - contrasting the look of massed 10mm figures versus individual 28mm figures. In this case, where a standard 28mm unit has 20 figures, by mounting 3x 10mm figures on a base and "counting" it is a single figure for the rules, you actually get a 1:1 representation of a company on the table in less space, at no change to game play.

A long answer ... but yes, I do think that the scale will become more popular as ranges fill out.

Cheers,

Christopher

[CATenWolde]

PS - just want to share something that has been a huge boon to my 10mm collections recently, and might be worth touting - recent developments that improve the time from painting desk to playing table. I've started using a combination of Army Painter spray base coats and GW finishing washes, and the impact on my painting speed has been enormous! I still paint everything I did, details etc. - but not having to paint blue for the ACW or French, or dark brown on Zulus, and so on, has been a huge help, while the ease of the GW washes for finishing is great.

[ronan]

Do you think then, that 10mm will steadily become more popular as the ranges on offer increase? 

That's my opinion

[Leon]

I think a greater range will undoubtably help, especially with core gaming areas such as Napoleonics. I have no idea as to the breadth of the Magister Militum range, but that is popular at the club for WMA. I think more army packs would certainly help based around say WMA, BKC etc.

I'm not sure about the size of our competitors ranges actually.  We think of Magister as our main rival I suppose, but I'm sure we've got a wider variety of ranges.  The two areas in which they outdo us is Ancients and Napoleonics.  I know I'm slightly biased, but I think we've got the best sculpts on the market for the majority of our ranges.

More Army Packs can be done, but I'm not sure if they'd all sell?  We used to do a larger range of BKC armies, with the big £70-£90 packs, but they very rarely sold, so we downsized to the current ones, which sell much better.  It's a similar story with the WM Ancient/Medievals, where they don't sell much through the website, but go quite well at shows?  Not quite sure why that is.  I will look into different armies though, we could maybe extend the Medieval packs.

[Leon]

Thanks for that Christopher, lots of food for thought there.

The contrast between the cost and scale and quality of the 15mm figures and the 10mm offerings might also actually help establish 10mm as the viable alternative. Thinking about the active BKC forums, the debate is pretty much between 5mm and 10mm, with 15mm out of the picture.

Hopefully this will be true as more and more people start to get into 10mm and see what it has to offer.

Since it is a relatively new scale in other periods, you're really facing the challenge of getting gamers to either give up or duplicate existing collections, or attracting new gamers. Ancients are much more tournament minded than most other periods, and so more scale dependent, and I could see that era being unfortunately a little more difficult for other scales to penetrate into.

I always look at Ancients and think it would be ideal for 10mm?  You can get just about the same number of figures as 6mm, with much more detail and 'personality' to the figures.  I know Magister seem to do well with their Ancients, so maybe we need to look at extending that area a bit, and working on marketing it right.  We offer discounts to the Soc. of Ancients members, so I'll get in touch with them.

Another manufacturer to make a big splash in 10mm recently is of course Magister Militum, and while I don't know what their impact has been, I'll hazard a guess that the simple issue of aesthetic quality has handicapped their figures.

I think the advantage we have here, is that they have more scales to keep up with, so their releases in 10mm can be quite slow.  We can keep churning out the new stuff, and hopefully catch up with their variety of Ancients/Naps.

Since 10mm is relatively new and there are compatibility issues between the few existing lines with overlaps, it is unfortunately even more important for lines to be complete.

This is something me and Dave have spoken about, there are a few holes in some ranges which we need to fill in sooner rather than later.

In terms of spreading the word about the scale, why not encourage some articles with nice photos and maps in either print or on-line journals/forums that contrast the two different approaches that 10mm offers?

An article is a good idea, I think it's been mentioned before as well.  It's something I'd love to do as soon as I have the time.

[Steve J]

I'm not sure about the size of our competitors ranges actually.  We think of Magister as our main rival I suppose, but I'm sure we've got a wider variety of ranges.  The two areas in which they outdo us is Ancients and Napoleonics.  I know I'm slightly biased, but I think we've got the best sculpts on the market for the majority of our ranges.

MM are the manufacturer of choice at the club for WMA and Napoleonics IIRC.

It's a similar story with the WM Ancient/Medievals, where they don't sell much through the website, but go quite well at shows?  Not quite sure why that is.  I will look into different armies though, we could maybe extend the Medieval packs.

At local shows they have ready to go army packs for loads of WMA armies which suit impulse buy purchases. They are also normally 10% off as well which always an attraction.

[Leon]

At local shows they have ready to go army packs for loads of WMA armies which suit impulse buy purchases. They are also normally 10% off as well which always an attraction.

We do the same thing, with the 10% discount.  They're on the website as well, 13 armies for Ancients, 3 for Dark Ages, and 20 for the Medievals.  I'm surprised they don't sell as much online.

[Aart Brouwer]

If 10mm is niche, though, it's because the "old guys" are already heavily invested in other scales.

This is so true. I know of two "converts" (my regular gaming buddies) and they went through something of a rebirth: they seem to have so much more fun painting and gaming with their 10mils than they've had for years and years with their 15mm.

And hey, the best argument for 10mm Pendrakens is eBay. Type in "Pendraken" and the search result is: 0. Nobody, but nobody, dumps their Pendrakens.

I know, it's a lame argument, but I believe there is some truth to it.

Cheers,
Aart

[Leon]

And hey, the best argument for 10mm Pendrakens is eBay. Type in "Pendraken" and the search result is: 0. Nobody, but nobody, dumps their Pendrakens.

I've never tried that!  There should be some somewhere though, we've got a customer who buys the gliders, and V1/2's, paints them up and sells them on eBay?