Overstuffed market?

Started by Luddite, 09 August 2012, 10:31:49 AM

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Luddite

It seems to me that, particularly over the past 3-4 years there's been an absolute glut of rules, for all periods, hitting the market.

I've bought a fair few and have been disappointed that they are all ostensibly the same, with very little variation in the basic premise that put forwards (similar level of abstractions, focus on 'game', little attempt at 'modelling reality', etc.). 

They also all seem to be reflections of a theme with the GW style simple skirmishing model predominating many sets.

I've not come across anything truely inspiring for some time and have actually stopped buying rules because of this, except where i've seen something new (to me) that seems genuinely interesting.

In this vein i'd cite:

Malifaux - very interesting skirmish rules but ultimately gimmicky, limited, and 'broken' in terms of the balanced tourney play its designed for.

Dystopian Wars - Very interesting VSF naval game with some solid mechanics that remind me more of roleplaying game mechanics ('exploding' dice pools).



So...ramblingly stumbling to my point, what do you chaps think? 
Are there too many rulesets out there now? 
Do you buy rules only to never play them as they're basically inferior copies to other rules you've already done? 
Is it good there are so many rules being published?
Have you found any truely innovative rules lately?
Do you think the current focus on gamist abstraction is good or bad?

:-\

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Derek H

Disagree 100% with just about everything you've said there.  Some absolutely fantastic sets of rules have come out in the past couple of years, several which are really rather innovative with their mechanics.

For a completely new take on the skirmish genre see Saga and Impetus is quite different to any other set of ancient mass battles rules out there. 

Other personal favourites are the steady stream of innovative rules from TooFatLardies, Muskets & Tomahawks and Force on Force. 



Duke Speedy of Leighton

09 August 2012, 11:08:11 AM #2 Last Edit: 09 August 2012, 11:14:33 AM by mad lemmey
My issue is that a series of once rather good rules (DBMx, Principles, VandB, WHaB and even Flames) have all reached the end of their dominance of the market, leaving some fairly major unhesitatingly massive vacuums in the market, and as nature abhors a vacuum, and as new rules are published more easily in glorious technocolour, than those horrific photocopied rules we all used in the 80s and 90s; meaning it has become more difficult to settle into one set of rules that everyone agrees on...
Try looking at MKWS on an average night, constantly 20 plus members, when I first joined in the 90s therewould be 3 or 4 rule sets being played, now we can have ten or more different sets being played!
I took a count two years ago, despite  playing two rule sets at least once a month I played something like 13 different rules!
I think that we are seeing a good thing in wargames, better editorial control, better quality rules, more variety, but nothing revolutionary that has really blown everyone out the water like the original DBA did to wrg 7th!
I'll be interested to see what will happen in the next few years! :)
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FierceKitty

Must agree that there are far too many which seem throwbacks to the dark days of Grant and Featherstone, with endless dice, individual figure movement that renders real battles unthinkable, and illustrations taking priority over authenticity.
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SV52

Yup, agree.  I'll stay with DBx and HOTT with their many variants.  I really don't buy this stuff that so-and-so's new rules give the real flavour of warfare in a particular period.  How do they know?  Were they there?  Such is the power of marketing.  IMHO  ;)
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Sandinista

Having come back into the hobby 3 years or so ago after a 20 year gap I do think there are an awful lot of rules out there, most I've not played. It can be a little frustrating trying to find a set that most at the club are happy to play. I do wonder at times at the people who condemn a rule set as being unrealistic, what are they looking for? I have seen some rules with so many cross referenced charts I feel I need a maths degree to understand them. We were chatting in the bar after the games club last week and playing a game using WRG's 5th edition ancients was mooted, as all had said they enjoyed them back in the day.

Basically, all I am after is putting my toys on the table, moving them about a bit, having a bit of banter and a beer with my opponent and ending the evening wanting to do it all again

sebigboss79

Luddite has a point. Loads of stuff indeed but most is mediocre at best.

Basic problem: Someone who does not CARE about wargaming (or just about a few aspects HE/SHE likes) writes a ruleset to make money.

Some are easy to spot (pdfs carrying the pricetag of a HC book, continous "updates" and "supplements"...) but others hide well and you are just disappointed you wasted your time and money there.

Solution: Follow reviews, check free QS rules, contact the developers...


I play a lot of rulesets and look at a lot of Minis because I like variety. I play Urban War (great, realistic ruleset and highly strategic), Starmada (Spacegaming rocks) and I want to have a look at FWC. Distesting the moneymaking machinery attitude of a majour player in the business I am happy how I got into Pendraken and now another scale through Nik.

What I did, almost 300 years ago I think, I asked Leon and Dave if they had pics of the SciFi range. They told me nope but told me of Niks wiki where I can see some stuff. They also explained the "cast to order" process and I placed my first order some time after that.  I have never regretted this investment.

Should Pendraken decide to carry a ruleset I am sure it will be a good one, just because all stock they carry is great.

Duke Speedy of Leighton

Sandinista,
I wish more people had your attitude to gaming, and my one regret about going to a club out of town is the beer opportunities are SO limited as I refuse to even consider drinking and driving!
You may refer to me as: Your Grace, Duke Speedy of Leighton.
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Fenton

09 August 2012, 02:09:24 PM #8 Last Edit: 09 August 2012, 02:12:53 PM by Fenton
To be honest I think most rulesets are now variations on a theme

Thinking of just a couple of the rulesets you have mentioned, Impetus for one is very similar to Vis Bellica and Armati in what it trys to portray, although I enjoy Impetus I still think that Vis Bellica is a better game, you could argue that the Two fat lardies stuff is just another card driven game, IABSM reminds me a lot of Western And Eastern Tank Leader board games by West End games

I think these days with the internet it gives companies a bigger shop window to sell their wares and people look to see what the new shiney ruleset is without wondering if the one there using is any better.

Although
I have never played Black Powder or Hail Ceaser have these games become popular just because of the author and minis company associated with them or are they any really any better than the rulesets that have gone before
If I were creating Pendraken I wouldn't mess about with Romans and  Mongols  I would have started with Centurions , eight o'clock, Day One!

robert

I wish I could have all the money back for rules I have bought, tried a couple of times and then Ebayed them!

All wargamers fancy a change of period now and again (or every day even) and most wargamers are not backwards in voicing opinions as to the best set of rules for a period or unit size etc and all the 'static' thus generated is very confusing when trying to assess which rules to use for a new period/project.

It does baffle me how many gamers, having finally managed to settle on a specific set for a period, are then so easily swayed into trying a new set for the same period when they were quite happy with the one they owned! 

I am always amused by instant queries made when new rules come out, like - yes, I know they are for Napoleonics but how can I tweak them for an earlier or later period?

Whilst we will never all agree on everything (God forbid) it may be helpful to all and sundry if we could have a permanently updated poll running - firstly agreeing on the 'period labels - Ancient, Med, Ren - etc and then each of us voting for our current favourite..........this way we would build a sort of database of rules that people like (even if only one vote) and also which set is the most popular.

How about it brethren?  Is there some way a continous poll could be set up Leon?  In time old chap, I realise you are very busy!
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Duke Speedy of Leighton

The BP and HC popularity was partly due to them being a set of rules similar to warmaster but also because initially it was based on the players actually going off and doing their own research!
You may refer to me as: Your Grace, Duke Speedy of Leighton.
2016 Pendraken Painting Competion Participation Prize  (Lucky Dip Catagory) Winner

Leon

Just to throw a manufacturer point of view in here, as designing and publishing rules is something we'll be doing one day (don't ask for timescales though!), and we're faced with a similar debate here. 

Does a company look at the most popular rulesets already on the market, and try to make something similar?  The current market shows that they would be accepted as a viable ruleset, they would sell, and they would also be easier to produce.  But would that just be overstuffing the overstuffed market?

Or, do they instead go down a completely different route, and try to create something original and unique, with a mechanism/engine that's not been used before?  We'd have no idea whether they would sell, what we think is a USP could kill them dead in the water.  They would require a lot more work, more playtesting, more careful tweaking, and definitely more marketing/promotion on release, to get people to take a chance on them.

Looking at it that way, it's easy to see why a lot of people produce rules loosely based on previously popular sets, as it makes good business sense.
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GordonY

Ok my tuppence worth, what makes a good set of rules

0) nearly forgot this one, should be period specific, not like BP. if its an ACW set then its an ACW set ONLY
1) All in one book, like BKC, intro, rules, lists, no supplements.
2) Simple, chuck a d6, in the open hits on a 4+, in light cover on a 5+, in hard cover, sorry mate, you needed a 6
3) no more piccies than necessary, thats just bloating the pagenumbers to justify the price
4) the rules themselves should only be about 10-15 pages
5) no fricken "special" rules
6) should be playable with a low figure count to let newbs get a game in quicker

I think thats about it

Aart Brouwer

I'm with Sandinista. You compromise with your favourite gaming buddies, that's what you do. And then you sit down and have a drink game or two, you eat together - whether it's a fancy meal or fries and sausages doesn't matter - and you swap stories, book titles, muck about and go home thoroughly satisfied. I've been doing this every week or fortnight for the past few years and I wouldn't miss it for the world.

There are too few wargamers in my neck of the woods to even form a wargaming club, though we're working on that. Some of them have decades of experience and their taste in periods and rules is usually good, or good enough for me. Spearhead and the Warlord range mostly. Their collections of 6mm, 10mm and 15mm are huge, each of them certainly large enough to play all sorts of wars from ancients to WWII without anyone having the schlepp with funny boxes.

I'm dabbing in Crossfire and Maurice myself, mainly because I want to solo-game those rules.

Cheers,
Aart
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Ben Waterhouse

Quote from: GordonY on 09 August 2012, 05:10:18 PM
Ok my tuppence worth, what makes a good set of rules

0) nearly forgot this one, should be period specific, not like BP. if its an ACW set then its an ACW set ONLY
1) All in one book, like BKC, intro, rules, lists, no supplements.
2) Simple, chuck a d6, in the open hits on a 4+, in light cover on a 5+, in hard cover, sorry mate, you needed a 6
3) no more piccies than necessary, thats just bloating the pagenumbers to justify the price
4) the rules themselves should only be about 10-15 pages
5) no fricken "special" rules
6) should be playable with a low figure count to let newbs get a game in quicker

I think thats about it

Neil Thomas?
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Wargaming-Nineteenth-Century-Europe-1815-1878/p/3395/