Leopold von Edelsheim 1866

Started by mollinary, 29 June 2012, 09:39:07 PM

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cameronian

Sterling stuff from the Avocatus Diaboli however, posits the Avocatus Dei, if Edelsheim equipped his men (my recollection is that it was only the hussar regiments) with the Werndl at his own expense, presumably as a result of his frustration with Vienna's glacially slow procurement, are we likely to find such a reference in the Official History?
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mollinary

Cam,

Fascinating to see you characterising yourself as Avocatus Dei, and yet only coming up with the somewhat stale, "well they would say that, wouldn't they" sort of conspiracy theory stuff.    :-\ :-\.  I'll counter with the following pieces:
I) are you saying the government didn't supply any weapons to the division and is lying in the history? Or are you saying they went ahead and did it anyway even thought they knew they had already got better weapons? Hmmm!

II) when did Edelsheim do this amazing piece of military philanthropy?  As I understand it (again, am open to correction by those who
have access to better sources) 1st Light cavalry division was a wartime formation, only established on mobilisation and allocated a commander at that time.  I think (?) Edelsheim was the commandant of the cavalry school until that moment. If this is true, they wouldn't even be his regiments until mobilisation, when the staff history details the dispatch of the carbines.

III) Jicin.  Lettow Vorbeck and the Austrian History both refer to ONE incident of dismounted carbine use. In neither source does it seem to have any appreciable effect, and the hussars are rapidly forced to mount up and retire.  Does this imply they are well trained skirmishers with a state of the art breech loading carbines,  or light cavalry unused to dismounted warfare newly equipped with a muzzle loader they haven't been trained to use?  I rest my case (for the present). 

By the way, I have dropped Bruce a line to see if he has any other sources.

Mollinary
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cameronian

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cameronian

15 July 2012, 01:15:35 PM #18 Last Edit: 15 July 2012, 01:17:32 PM by cameronian
I'm searching my sources but so far can only come up with Bennighof, Strategy and Tactics March April 1994 No 167 pages 11 and 15; ditto Bennighof in his notes online concerning his new 1866 game series;

"The other major Austrian formation in Bohemia, 1st Light Cavalry Division, stood in sharp contrast and was probably the best large Austrian unit at the start of the war. Led by Austria's best-known cavalryman, Leopold von Edelsheim-Gyulai, the division's regiments had practiced scouting, screening and dismounted combat â€" missions unknown to most European cavalry units. Edelsheim had won the Military Order of Maria Theresa at Solferino in 1859, leading his regiment on a mad charge into a gap in the French lines and personally lopping off the arm of French Marshal Francois Canrobert. While he had made his reputation as a fighting soldier, Edelsheim was one of the more forward-looking Austrian generals (and at 40, the youngest commanding a major formation) and had eagerly studied cavalry operations in the American Civil War. Frustrated by the army's immense bureaucracy, he had dipped into his massive personal fortune to buy Werndl repeating rifles for his men. The Cavalry School and its chief, the Prince of Thurn und Taxis (wartime commander of the 2nd Light Cavalry Division) still preached mounted combat as the cavalry's reason for existence. Edelsheim saw the cavalryman using his mobility to frustrate enemy movements and gather intelligence. An oversized division, 1st Light Cavalry had three brigades with 6,700 horsemen, plus 24 guns".



"Leopold von Edelsheim-Gyulai, commander of the 1st Light Cavalry Division, armed his men with the excellent Werndl breechloading rifle in March, 1866, three months before the war broke out. These weapons had good reliability and much better performance than the Prussian Dreyse needle-gun. Regiments of 2nd Light Cavalry Division received muzzle-loading carbines just before the war's beginning, as the high command belatedly saw the wisdom of Edelsheim's private venture. They quickly ordered 5,000 Winchester repeaters to re-arm the rest of the light cavalry, but these did not arrive until the war was almost over. Light cavalry regiments in Southern Army facing the Italians did not receive any shoulder arms at all, and relied on their lances and horse pistols instead".



Now normally I wouldn't rely on only one source but Bennighof's PhD thesis was on Edelsheim and the 1st Light Cavalry Div, one would expect that his facts would be accurate and verified unless things have changed a lot since my own undergrad days. I've asked him subsequently by email for verification, likewise I've emailed his alma mater and asked for sight of the thesis; I haven't received a reply to either request. Do any of our friends in academia (any across the pond) have an idea how we can track this thesis down, surely it must be in the public domain, isn't that part of the deal.
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cameronian

 ;D
Yes, it does reduce his cred slightly however ... lets's try and get the PhD thesis first.
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Shecky

Do you know where he got his PhD? The library at that university should have a copy.

nikharwood

Quote from: Shecky on 15 July 2012, 04:08:10 PM
Do you know where he got his PhD? The library at that university should have a copy.

Emory University - published in 2000:

http://history.emory.edu/home/graduate/faculty-focus-areas/modern-europe.html

cameronian

Emory, I'm trying.

BTW another reference, admittedly not primary source, The Armies of 1866, Pickelhaube Press, page 2;

"The other Light Cavalry Regiments were in the process of converting from pistol to to short Werndl carbines although 20 men in each Ulhan regiment carried the carbine in any event (might this have been the muzzle loader? - my comment). By the outcome of the war only half the Light Cavalry Regiments (including incidentally all of 1st Light Cavalry Division), had completed the transition"
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Leon

I must say that following this thread is quite enjoyable, watching combined efforts unearth more and more information is fantastic, and exactly what forums are for.

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mollinary

Cam,

I just googled Mike Bennighof's thesis at Emory.  It is from 2000, and is titled : "Echoes of Radetsky: Institutional memory and the Austrian Campaign in Italy 1866".   Close to Edelsheim, but not quite a cigar?  

Curiously on your quote, my copy says "from pistol to short infantry carbine"!  As you say not a primary source, and I can counter with another secondary Wargamer's source, Darko Pavlovic's Osprey Man at Arms no 329, "The Austrian Army 1836-66 (2) Cavalry" page  33: "some hussars were issued with the adapted Extracorps-Gewehr (specialist troops' rifle) shortly before the outbreak of the war of 1866, when the troopers of the 1st Light Cavalry Division and of one squadron in each regiment of the 2nd Light Cavalry Division were armed in this way.". This fits exactly with my quotation from the Austrian Official History.

Regards,

Mollinary
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mollinary

OK - time to expose some of the original material in the Austrian History concerning Jicin, and see if any of our friends who are more fluent in German than I can offer a literal translation.  Having described how the Austrians, including the Liechtenstein Hussars of Appel's brigade, were bundled out of the village of Zames towards Lunacek, it goes on to say:

"Auch die Brigade Wallis ruckte etwas vor, - und alle drei Cavallerie-Regimenter machten sich in der Erwartung des baldigen Einruckens der sachsischen Truppen, zur Vertheidigung der Stellung in erster Linie bereit. Mehrere Zuge sassen ab, formirten sich zu Fuss und besetzten den zwischen Lunacek und Zames gelegenen Hugel, doch konnten dieselben bei aller Tapferkeit und obgleich sie durch attakirende Schwarme unterstutzt wurden, ihre Position nicht lange halten; als etwa gegen 6 Uhr bedeutendere feindliche Krafte vorruckten, mussten die Brigaden ihre Plankler unter dem Schutze einer Attake, welche die zu Pferde gebleibenen Abtheilungen der 1. und 3. Escadron des Regiments Liechtenstein-huszaren ausfuhrten, zurucknehmen."

Page 203, Osterreichs Kampfe Im Jahre 1866

Grateful in advance for any help.

Mollinary
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cameronian

Yes I see his thesis was on the Italian campaign but I'm sure he told me it was on Edelsheim, admittedly it was years ago; nonetheless lets unearth it and find out what is says; the Pickelhaube quote is exactly as I have said, page 2, weapons and tactics, para 4. What edition do you have?
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mollinary

Cam,

September 1994, but he may have modified it to take account of Bennighof's work.  His original statement is consistent with  Lettow-Vorbeck, page 16. It is also L-V who says that before the outbreak of war Edelsheim, who he obviously admires, was in charge of the equitation school in Vienna.


Mollinary
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Hertsblue

Quote from: cameronian on 15 July 2012, 07:45:23 PM
the Pickelhaube quote is exactly as I have said, page 2, weapons and tactics, para 4.

My edition (2003) agrees with Cam for what it's worth.
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