Leopold von Edelsheim 1866

[mollinary]

So, just back from the fields of 1866, and inspired to research in more detail some of the intriguing aspects of this neglected campaign, and need some help. I wanted to find more about this Austrian cavalry commander, lauded by Mike Bennighof of Avalanche Press, and apparently the subject of his PhD thesis. He sounded like the perfect commander, intelligent, flexible, up to date if not ahead of his times, dashing and bold.  Mike even describes him personally lopping off Canrobert's arm during the war in Italy in 1859, before personally equipping his division with breech loading carbines at his own expense. My problem?  My "google foo" or the net itself, has failed me. I cannot find any references to these events which do not originate with Mike Bennighof.  I cannot even find references to Canrobert losing his arm at all!  Can anyone help me by guiding me to some 19th century source on this remarkable man, Leopold von Edelsheim?  Grateful for anything.

Mollinary

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Touch of the tall tale there I feel,
Canorobert was wounded at both the Alma and the Inkerman, he served in Italy, distinguishing himself at both Magenta and Solferino and nowhere and in any picture nor does any source I've rever read mention a lost arm! He was wounded in the arm at the Alma. Not the sort of thing the French would have ever let anyone forget, especially a Marshal of France!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Certain_Canrobert
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Certain_de_Canrobert
http://www.military-photos.com/herosalger.htm
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Nadar definitely shows two arms...
Pinch of salt needed!
I shall double check with Barrie Lovell and the timecast boys too...

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Barrie says:
Did a google search on von Edelsheim and there are a number of pages in German...

He did NOT cut Canrobert's arm off at Solferino.

Barrie

[mollinary]

Thanks for checking with Barrie, this fits exactly with what I had concluded from my googling.  Do you have any references for the German pages?  My German is just about good enough to get the gist, but I have found nothing to support the material about Edelsheim's training his division in a unique manner, nor that he equipped them with BL carbines at his own expense. I haven't even been able to find any reference to a Werndl carbine earlier than the Model 1867. With many thanks for you efforts on my behalf,

Mollinary 

[OldenBUA]

German wiki page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Freiherr_von_Edelsheim-Gyulai

[mollinary]

Thanks Olden,

Maybe it is my poor German, but this (and the links it contains) does not seem to cast any light on the issues of Edelsheim as a commander up to and including 1866.  The search goes on!

Mollinary

[OldenBUA]

1859 As colonel and commander of Hussar rgt 10. Leopold leads a counterattack against the French at Magenta (June 4th)

"... Oberst Senneville, Generalstabschef des feindlichen Corpscommandanten Marschall Canrobert, ... fiel in den letzten Augenblicken dieses blutigen Gefechtes, Canrobert selbst war nahe daran, von den Reitern Edelsheim’s zusammengehauen zu werden."

Colonel Senneville (chief of staff of Canrobert) was killed in the last moments of the bloody fight, Canrobert was close to being killed by Edelsheims troops.

So no, nothing there to justify the claims made sofar.

[mollinary]

Olden,

Hmmmm!  I would be very surprised if we found confirmation of the combat amputation claim now, after our collective searches.  I am wondering if there is anything out there which supports the claims for ACW influenced tactics and personally financed carbines.

Thanks again,

Mollinary

[Bernie]

Jay Luvaas was the main historian as far as I can remember who studied the impact of ACW on European military affairs. Unfortunately they all turned up at the start of the war - saw "the two armed mobs" at First Bull Run and went home in disgust - thus missing the improvements in the later war. He suggested that as the Russian observers turned up so late they were impressed with the Union cavalry and their breechloaders that they went back with this thought. I do not remember anything re the Austrians

Bernie
 

[cameronian]

The Canrobert episode is evidently fictitious. When Bennighof was in communicative mode he did send me a reference to a work in German detailing the adventures of 1st Div but I'm damned if I can find it. I would suggest posting on the yahoo groups 1870 and BLOODANDIRON (Bruce or Mike Embree are bound to have something), you might also try emailing Duncan Rogers of Helion whose personal archive is extensive. Wawro gives a reference to Edelsheim's ideas on the role of modern cavalry in the footnotes at the bottom of page 268.

[mollinary]

Cam,

Well done for finding the footnote.  As far as I can tell, it refers to Edelsheim's championing of arming the cavalry with a carbine.  I found a book on line on the Army of Franz Josef which refers to the arming of Edelsheim's division with carbines in May 1866, and Thurn und Taxis' regiments with carbines for one squadron per regiment.   I looked through Lettow-Vorbeck, and he refers to a "shortened infantry rifle" if my German does not let me down. This is all a long way from Werndl breech loaders at his own expense!

Mollinary

[cameronian]

Cam,

Well done for finding the footnote.  As far as I can tell, it refers to Edelsheim's championing of arming the cavalry with a carbine.  I found a book on line on the Army of Franz Josef which refers to the arming of Edelsheim's division with carbines in May 1866, and Thurn und Taxis' regiments with carbines for one squadron per regiment.   I looked through Lettow-Vorbeck, and he refers to a "shortened infantry rifle" if my German does not let me down. This is all a long way from Werndl breech loaders at his own expense!

Mollinary

Stop picking the scab and face it, the definitive history of 1866 in the English language is waiting to be written, take early retirement and get on with it, look if it'll make you feel any better I'll even do the introduction.

[Ben Waterhouse]

Stop picking the scab and face it, the definitive history of 1866 in the English language is waiting to be written, take early retirement and get on with it, look if it'll make you feel any better I'll even do the introduction.

Isn't Quentin Barrie's (sp?) book on 1866 any good?

[Hertsblue]

Isn't Quentin Barrie's (sp?) book on 1866 any good?

No, it doesn't go into detail about Edelsheim's command.

[mollinary]

Well, I have occupied myself during the interminable tennis by looking through the Austrian staff history in a slightly more systematic manner than before. In its description of the painful mobilisation of the Army, described in such detail that the dispatch of extra wagons to the corps is set out, I came across a description of the issue of weapons to the Light Cavalry (in mid May 1866!).  It was decided to issue all the ORs (gemeiner) in Edelsheim's division, and one squadron per regiment in Thurn und Taxis' division with "Extra Corps Gewehr". In true Hapsburg fashion those who were issued with the carbine had their pistols taken away.   A footnote sets out that 3,440 of these weapons were sent from Vienna to units of the 1st Light Cavalry Division in Prague, Theresianstadt and Josefstadt. If my cod German is right, they were also issued 24 cartridges a man as "pocket ammunition" and extra 30 as a reserve.  Now to the suppositions.  Googling shows two "Extra Corps" versions of the Lorenz, an 1854 model and an 1862 one.  Both are muzzle loaders. A breech loading version does not seem to be available  until an 1867 contract was let to convert 80,000 Lorenz to the Wanzl system.  Grateful if anyone can confirm or modify this supposition.  Second, 3440 weapons was far below the actual strength of the division, let alone it's book strength.  From the use of the word gemeiner, could I assume that they were not issued to NCOs and Officers?  The only other way I can think of to explain the shortfall is that they were not issued to the so called "German Light Cavalry" the two dragoon regiments, but it does not seem likely.  Third, I think my books say that the Light Cavalry Divisions were not permanent formations, but we're made up of existing brigades on an ad hoc basis. Is it a reasonable assumption that the 3 brigades of Edelsheim's Division had their depots in Prague, Theresienstadt and Josefstadt? Anyone?   Anyway, perhaps enough to get someone through the Men's Doubles Finals!

Mollinary