1870 Imperial French Guard Corps

[mollinary]

Thanks Le Manchou, I have never seen that engraving before.  Ah, the wonders of the Internet!

Mollinary

[Shecky]

The Guard Corps looks great. I'm working on my forces for TTLGB but all I have so far are a few cavalry regiments and artillery batteries per side. I don't think I'll build the Guards for either side until I get at least two regular corps finished.

But it doesn't hurt to look and dream...

[cameronian]

Ah but ML, I am further progressed towards megalomania than you, and can therefore claim a larger statue in the Schloss Pengilley's games room.  My French army has six corps and shed load of cavalry, my Germans have two Bavarian corps, one Saxon Corps, the Wurttemberg Field division and six Prussian Corps (with another one coming) and five cavalry divisions.  As my empire spreads the Austrian army is now on the Horizon, and seven more corps will soon reach Bohemia via Sri Lanka.  So, as they say, resistance is futile!   

Typing ceases as he is hauled away with sound of metallic maniacal laughter echoing around his padded cell. But perhaps padded cells don't echo?

Mollinary

One is decidedly impressed; how many figures to a Mollinary Division? I work on 1 figure represents about 70 so infantry battalions have 14 figures, regiments 42, brigades 84, divisions 168, corps 340 plus two battalions od Jaegers, plus divisional and corps artillery, plus divisional cavalry, plus command figures, comes to about 500 figures per corps (I have only 2 Prussian corps, plus a division of guard, plus a division of reserve cavalry, plus a division of dragoons, plus a brigade of wurtemburgers). I'm currently increasing my French army to 2 full corps, 2 reserve cavalry divisions and a division of guard. The Austrians, 2 full infantry corps with all supporting arms plus a division of light cav (1st of course) plus 2 divisions of reserve cavalry plus the Royal Saxon Army in its entirety; all in all i think i can put about 3000 figures on the table, quite enough for me though I must say I loved the photos of your Gravelotte game with DZ you posted last year. We really must try and arrange a 2 day w/end using my Nachod skalitz board, though I say it myself it is nice.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Quick estimation:
Mine are c30 figures to an infantry base, 10 for jagers/chasseurs 15 for cav, guns two per base plus 12 crew (more for horse artillery with limber etc).
So French are running at 16 Infantry bases (three divisions and a brigade), 4 chasseurs 10 cav (three divisions plus Guard Heavy brigade) and 14 batteries =  750 figures, plus generals & Limbers = c780 (that is most of 2nd Corps, 1st Division 6th Corps and all 6th Corps artillery)
Prussians are 16 Infantry bases (2 divisions in 2 corps; never notices that before), 3 jager, 9 cav (two divisions, Guard dragoons and lots of dragoon squadrons; I'm counting dragoon squadron as half units) and 16+ batteries = c730 plus generals and limbers = c750
Wurttenbergers = 6 Infantry, 3 jagers, 1 cav, 9 guns = c350 Now my head hurts! 
Okay - you guys out figure me! Never noticed how evenly balanced that was! Must be a sign to finish 6th French and start Pruissian/Hessian XI Corps!
I have another 150 or so of each side waiting to get based and started, another Division per side.

Wurttembergers are popular aren't they! 

[mollinary]

Haven't counted for a while so just did a very quick German head count for 1870. It came to 227 line and guard infantry battalions
And 23 Jaeger battalions. At 17/18 per battalion for the former and 12 for the latter it is something like 4,150 infantry. 68 cavalry
Regiments at 12 apiece come in at some 816 horse. Artillery number 186 batteries (guns) with 3/4per crew. I have no idea how many
Mounted generals I have, but it's 2 figures for brigade command, 3 for division and 4 for a corps. Army command have half a dozen.
About one more corps coming!

The French have smaller battalions (13) figures each, and I have 18 Zouave and Turcos, 12 Marines, 23 Guard, and 200 line
Battalions, and 15 Chasseur battalions of 10, so a total of 3,439 -ish. Cavalry 20 light and 6 guard cavalry 15 man regiments, and 26 Lancer,
Dragoon and Cuirassier regiments, for 702 horse. 107 gun batteries and 22 Mitrailleuse, all of 3/4 crew.
Generals as for the Germans.  Bottom line, a Mollinary division mirrors its particular historical counterpart, but average Prussians
will have 200+ infantry, 12 cavalry and 4 gun batteries.

I also have the 1866 Saxons, and 2 Austrian corps, the rest are on their way to Sri Lanka.

Wow!

Mollinary

[Hertsblue]

I also have the 1866 Saxons, and 2 Austrian corps, the rest are on their way to Sri Lanka.

Wow!

Mollinary

What happens in Sri Lanka, Mollinary? 

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

WOW! That's a lot of figures!  

[vitrier]

Le Manchou’s post of 22 January is of particular interest because he gave us a link to an engraving appearing to show the Artillery of the Guard in the plain blue veste rather than the red-frogged dolman, although the illustration is not clear enough to be completely certain about this. This is contrary to many authorities, most notably Detaille in En Batterie who shows the Guard gunners at Rezonville in dolmans. However, it is consistent with the view of Louis Delpérier, the doyen of Second Empire uniform studies, who writes in the first of his Osprey Men-at-Arms title on the French army of 1870 that only officers and NCOs wore the dolman on campaign and that gunners wore the veste. A plate in Delpérier’s more recent La Garde Impériale de Napoléon III shows a Guard gunner in 1870 wearing the veste.

Delpérier strikes a further blow at the accuracy of Detaille’s great picture (and at the romantics among us all) when he writes in La Garde Impériale de Napoléon III that the trumpeter’s white dolman was worn in full dress only, not on campaign. This is scarcely surprising. A white dolman worn in action would have made the unfortunate trumpeter even more of a ‘bullet magnet’ than was actually the case.


Vitrier

[mollinary]

Hertsblue, Sri Lanka is a magic isle where the painting elves live, and if their palms are crossed with silver they weave their magic and my battalions return complete.  A bit of basing and flagging to create a sense of uniformity and Bob's your uncle. A sad necessity for me - afflicted with the triple plagues of megalomania, no time and more money than sense.

Vitrier, thanks for bringing that up on the guard artillery uniforms. I Had read of this theory, and eminently sensible it seems to me. But ultimately it is a question between field uniform and dress uniform, and the Wargamer's choice.   I appreciate that I might have expressed myself better about Detaille, but what I meant to remark on was the accuracy of his uniforms vis a vis a particular period, rather than exactly what was worn by a regiment at a particular event.  The red trouser debate was rather different,  as I had not seen any source which suggested that this ever formed part of any guard artillery uniform, although Bernie has now pointed me towards an apparent reference in a Wargamer's painting guide by Sapherson.  We live and learn.

Mollinary

[vitrier]

Mollinary

It is for me to apologise if I gave the impression of being a pernickety critic of Detaille’s work. It was to a large extent his pictures in the Musée de l’Armée in Paris that first got me interested in the Second Empire over forty years ago. Sadly, most have now been withdrawn to storage. Above all, I regret the disappearance of En Batterie, which used to preside so majestically over the museum’s staircase.

Vitrier

[mollinary]

Vitrier,

Not a case of anyone having to apologise - I certainly did not take your post as pernickety. It merely got me to re-read my own post, and to realise that what I was trying to say could be misinterpreted.    As it happens I think the veste theory is very plausible, but unfortunately the Pendraken figures are wearing the dolman! Actually I don't think it is so unfortunate, because they are great figures.

Regards,

Mollinary

[vitrier]

Mollinary

Happily, in 10mm the presence or absence of frogging on jackets can be dealt with by the paintbrush. Furthermore, I think all ranks wore the dolman in the Crimea, and in Italy in 1859.

Vitrier