FOW? and other rules.

Started by Hurley, 09 March 2010, 05:12:31 PM

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Luddite

Quote from: slinky on 17 March 2010, 08:42:12 PM
Will try my twit rules again as they seem to have what Im looking for, just gotta get over the card issue!

Dunno about the card issue, its the crass name i can't get over... ::)
http://www.durhamwargames.co.uk/
http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/

"It is by tea alone i set my mind in motion.  It is by the juice of Typhoo my thoughs acquire speed the teeth acquire stains, the stains serve as a warning.  It is by tea alone i set my mind in motion."

"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - Gary Gygax
"Maybe emu trampling created the desert?" - FierceKitty

2012 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

"I have become inappropriately excited by the thought of a compendium of OOBs." FSN

Last Hussar

Many people can't see past the name, though it is usually written with a & not an 'a'.  Pity, because they are a brilliant set of rules- if for some reason I was going to be restricted to playing one set of WW2 for the rest of my life, it would be these.
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

Hurley

What makes BKC so good?

Right now I like FOW cause it's easy to learn and I don't have to spend time trying to figure out what can I play with army wise. I like fun and not wasting time looking up tables or having to tack stuff like in CBT.

At this point I should put out there what I play or played.
Impetus
Warmachine
40k
Wings of war
chaos in Carpatha 
BFG
CBT

Gearing up for:
Necromunda
War hammer historical
Fantasy Imputus
Something ww2.
warning up salt amounts when talking to this person.

Last Hussar

Quote from: Hurley on 20 March 2010, 03:46:46 AM
What makes BKC so good?

Very little.  I really do not understand why people rave over them.  The C&C rules, which every body lauds, make little sense in a number of situations- especially when firing.  I can shoot AUTOMATICALLY on reaction, but during my turn I can't. The standard reply is "Well not a billiard table/fold in the ground etc" which I understand, but a) why automatic shooting in reaction fire- surely those folds are still there and b) why does the location of the C/O make a difference to what I can see?

Additionally if 1 mode of a tank is a platton or single vehicle (depending what you are playing) then the AT rules make little sense, especially at the 1:1 scale.  A single tank is either dead or it isn't - the chance of a (mission) kill stays relatively steady- it doen't rely on a number of vehcles shootsing, except in 'lottery terms' - the more shots the more chance of a winning line.
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

Luddite

Quote from: Hurley on 20 March 2010, 03:46:46 AM
What makes BKC so good?

Right now I like FOW cause it's easy to learn and I don't have to spend time trying to figure out what can I play with army wise. I like fun and not wasting time looking up tables or having to tack stuff like in CBT.

There aren't any tables to reference in BKC... ???

QuoteAt this point I should put out there what I play or played.
Impetus
Warmachine
40k
Wings of war
chaos in Carpatha 
BFG
CBT

I can see why you like FoW then.  Its definately in that stable...hehe...



Quote from: Last Hussar on 20 March 2010, 01:52:57 PM
Quote from: Hurley on 20 March 2010, 03:46:46 AM
What makes BKC so good?

Very little. 

Couldn't disagree more.   :D

QuoteThe C&C rules, which every body lauds, make little sense in a number of situations- especially when firing.  I can shoot AUTOMATICALLY on reaction, but during my turn I can't. The standard reply is "Well not a billiard table/fold in the ground etc" which I understand, but a) why automatic shooting in reaction fire- surely those folds are still there and b) why does the location of the C/O make a difference to what I can see?

Its all about modelling battle friction and the ebb and flow of WWII conflict engagements, which many games fail to capture, some make a good stab at and BkC captures elegantly and almost perfectly.  For years we played Crossfire precisely for its accurate modelling of this friction, but BkC does it just as well and also adds in simple, elegant mechanics to model the combined arms nature of WWII, which Crossfire has always struggled with.

Do you feel the opportunity fire should be diced for rather than automatic?  No problem, simply introduce the house rule.
Opportunity perfectly reflects the key part of WWII battle friction - that of the ability of static troops (i.e. the side who's go it isn't and therefore the side that has momentarily lost initiative) to pin down advancing enemy who are vulnerable to fire while moving.

Troops 'on their turn' are subject to their command, and are therefore more occupied with taking initiative and following orders, making it far harder to react to the enemy (therefore requiring orders to shoot).

If it helps, its best to conceptualise (as in Crossfire) that movement and shooting is occurring all the time but the stuff you're dicing for are the critical actions during that phase of inititive friction...

BkC models this absolutely vital element of WWII battles brilliantly.  Unlike FoW which is...well...the rulebooks look pretty at least.


QuoteAdditionally if 1 mode of a tank is a platton or single vehicle (depending what you are playing) then the AT rules make little sense, especially at the 1:1 scale.  A single tank is either dead or it isn't - the chance of a (mission) kill stays relatively steady- it doen't rely on a number of vehcles shootsing, except in 'lottery terms' - the more shots the more chance of a winning line.

That only applies if you assume that a hit is only a mechanical 'kill'.  A hit in BkC does not solely represent a tank 'brewing up' (in fact it defaults to one tank model actually representing a formation of tanks), but it represents the morale effects of taking fire also. 
Inexperienced tank crews (expecially Americans) could be forced to withdraw simply by small arms fire hitting their tank.  Unaware of what was being fired at them, the'd withraw rather than risk being under ranging fire from say a co-axial tank MG...

We've been playing many WWII rules for years.  Crossfire was our favourite, but BkC has replaced them becuase they are just so accurate and playable.

Still, each to their own.   ;D ;D

http://www.durhamwargames.co.uk/
http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/

"It is by tea alone i set my mind in motion.  It is by the juice of Typhoo my thoughs acquire speed the teeth acquire stains, the stains serve as a warning.  It is by tea alone i set my mind in motion."

"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - Gary Gygax
"Maybe emu trampling created the desert?" - FierceKitty

2012 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

"I have become inappropriately excited by the thought of a compendium of OOBs." FSN

Last Hussar

Luddite your telling me nothing that I haven't been told before, and I didn't agree then either.  I've tried, I really have- the whole club is blind to the obvious faults.  I'll stick with the Lardies- rules written for the period, not a set of converted Ancients  ;)
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

sunjester

Quote from: Last Hussar on 20 March 2010, 11:11:34 PM
Luddite your telling me nothing that I haven't been told before, and I didn't agree then either.  I've tried, I really have- the whole club is blind to the obvious faults.  I'll stick with the Lardies- rules written for the period, not a set of converted Ancients  ;)

Says the man who has spent the past few weeks desperately selling me on Black Powder as the sliced bread for 18th century to FPW!!! :P

Personally I really like both BKC and IABSM/TW&T, depending on the level of action i want to represent. Both certainly get played at the Tring club. If I'm playing Last Hussar I play IABSM or TW&T, if I'm playing anyone else its BKC.

nikharwood

Nice debate fellas  ;D

BKC for me -*every* time... ;D not going to write an essay as it's been so eloquently 'pimped' here by others  8)

grimreaper

Each to there own, but myself i find BKC  rules better.   no rules are perfect and some need some mods made to them but they work well for me ;D

Stefanpanzer

Blitzkreig Commander for me after 50 years of wargaming.

Gunhit

To answer your original question Hurley, yes I used 10mm for FoW, didn't alter bases sizes and had no problems with it. However, FoW was not my cup of tea so moved onto BKC. Initially I liked BKC alot but the nagging doubts crept in. Fun game but not for me, not the right historical feel.  ;D

Adrian

Last Hussar

Quote from: sunjester on 20 March 2010, 11:27:24 PM

Says the man who has spent the past few weeks desperately selling me on Black Powder as the sliced bread for 18th century to FPW!!! :P


I haven't spent weeks - or at least not conciously.

If you feel browbeaten then I'm happy to do something else.
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

fishunter

I played a few different wargames over quite some years , and in my experience there's always different factors attracting different kind of gamers.
Some of us like the rules,some the gaming, some the painting , some the research and some everything in between.
For my part , i read do research and read rules because i am an academic at heart, i paint and build because i love my "geeky"hobby(and that still makes the girlfriend laugh :D) and i play because i can't resist having fun with some friends.
I get as much good fun playing over detailed and very realistic set of rules as  as i would get playing let's say FOW, it all comes down to how much time on our hands we have.

The point here , i think ,is that you can always tweak rules to suit your gaming style, make your own or pick up those you like from different systems.
I seem to remember that almost all rulbooks include a "designer's notes" section that usually says break and tweak , make it your own.

Anyways,what always attracted me to miniature wargames is the community , discussing ideas and sharing some fun time with my mates.(On that note i met most of my best buddies while wargaming)

So have a grand day and enjoy your favorite ruleset  :D
Only the fool wishes to go into battle to beat someone for the satisfaction of beating someone.

sunjester

Quote from: Last Hussar on 22 March 2010, 02:26:13 AM
I haven't spent weeks - or at least not conciously.

If you feel browbeaten then I'm happy to do something else.

;)  Don't worry, I don't feel at all browbeaten about itl.

I just think it's funny, that's all  :P

Last Hussar

Quote from: sunjester on 20 March 2010, 11:27:24 PM
[ If I'm playing Last Hussar I play IABSM or TW&T, if I'm playing anyone else its BKC.

You made it sound like I was being 'babysat' - are me and 'Gimli' on some sort of rota?
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry