1860/70's Dismounted Dragoons/Hussars and firing/skirmishing line! Please read!

[Leon]

I'm going to be seeing the designer at Salute, so I'm looking for some confirmation on exactly what people are wanting.  As the requests come in, I make little notes next to your requests, so I just need to clarify what I'm asking the designer for.  I've listed below what I've got written down:

PS, we won't have the design time to go crazy with the poses!

Firing/skirmishing line, kneeling/prone
Are we wanting these for French/Prussians/Austrians?  How many poses?  

Dismounted Dragoons & Hussars, kneeling/firing
I know we're wanting Fr/Pr/Au on these, but what poses?

We've only got a finite window for getting these done, probably 12 figures max.  Anything more than that, and it'll have to wait until the next 'Odds and Ends' month.

[Leman]

Re the dismounted mid century European dismounted cavalry: I know that dismounted Chasseurs d'Afrique and dismounted French dragoons operated in 1870 and I've also seen a painting of dismounted Prussian hussars in winter 1870/71. These latter were depicted in greatcoat and busby, standing firing and lying prone. I would certainly be up for any of these and the Austrians as well.

[maciek]

Leon,
I've only recently got interested with this period, so I don't know the poses that are available currently, but IMHO you shoud do figures, that composes well with existing ones.

I know, that some people use 10mm figures to produce "tokens" for wargaming, consisting of one pose groups, but I think that the future of 10mm lays in more imaginative approach, as in Perry's 28 mm and exactly as in Clibs's AWI and LOA. You should add some figures to fill the gaps in existing line thus allowing the people to create aesthetic, multi-pose stands.
I give you an example of French Chasseurs pack, wchich is similar in composition to this jaegers:

You could add only two figures:
- one kneeling firing
- one reloading (but dynamic)
These figures, mixed with existing ones would create a perfect skirmish line.

The same applies to
- French infantry
- German infantry in pickelhaube
- German Jaegers !
- Austrian Jaegers !
- if possible, Austrian infantry in greatcoats

The sculptor should work with existing figures and fit the new ones to them. If the Austrian line consists of attacking poses only, he shouldn't do firing ones, but add some attacking (slightly different) or advancing at trot with shouldered weapons.

I also dont see any need for prone figures. Only one prone figure would force me to create one-pose stands, as it's difficult to mix it with standing or even kneeling figures.

As for dimounted cavalry, I dont't know how often they dismount on battlefield (apart of small skirmishes), and which types could fight on foot. Certainly, heavy cavalry fought only mounted, and AFAIK, in 1866 there was only one divison of Austrian light cavalry, equipped with reliable carbines.  First, we should select cavalry types, that really fought dismounted. IMO two skirmishing poses for each type plus officer should be enough.

[cameronian]

Austrian Hussar (new style, busby with eagles feather) kneeling firing with slung pelisse would be great; a standing horseholder would add character too. In 1866 the Austrian light cavalry (partic 1st Division with their shiny new Werndl SSBA carbines) were far more likely to be employed in this role than either the Prussians, Saxons or Piedmontese.

[maciek]

In 1866 the Austrian light cavalry (partic 1st Division with their shiny new Werndl SSBA carbines) were far more likely to be employed in this role than either the Prussians, Saxons or Piedmontese.

Do we have any evidence, that they really fought dismounted ? AFAIK, the purchase of modern carabines was a private initiative of their commander, and Austrian doctrine didn't consider dismounting cavalry.
IMHO we should focus on infantry skirmisers instead.

[maciek]

I did a little research on the yahoo groups, and great Bruce Weigle (author of Grand Tactical Rules series) stated that most of the cavalry never fought on foot, and in sole ocassion when whole regiment of French dragoons dismounted, they were ordered to fight without helmets, to look like infantry !
We should focus on infantry skirmishers, I think ...

[cameronian]

Mike Bennighof (Avalanche Games) did his PhD thesis on Von Edelsheim; he is clear, as are the contemporary histories, that elements of 1st Light Cav fought dismounted. Thinking logically, why would the CinC furnish his men (using his own money) with shiny new carbines if he didn't intend them to be used? Von Edelsheim had studied the use of cavalry in the ACW and was convinced that its future lay in reconnaisance and fighting as dismounted infantry, but infantry that could sting, retire and sting again.
You didn't make clear in your post on the 1870 board that you were talking about the 1866 conflict as well as 1870; the title of your post is, and I quote 14 April, 2011 10:13:34[1870] dismounted cavalry

[maciek]

@Cameronian,

I posted it on "Blood and Iron" group also, and nobody answered me.
Now we know, that there is no need to make separate packs of French or German dismounted cavalry. Let's ascertain the truth about Edelsheim's division, than we could ask for dismounted Austrian hussars.
BTW. Do you use Grand Tactical Rules ?

[cameronian]

Hi Maciek, I have used them but I'm experimenting with FOB at present here: http://www.piquet.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=15

cards here: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Piquet/files/Field%20of%20Battle/

[Leman]

How come contemporary writing and graphics from 1870 now constitutes no evidence? I'll probably end up converting my own like I did in 6mm using ACW dismounteds as a template.
DP

[Le Manchou]

Concerning historical examples, at Spicheren, the 4th and 5th squadrons of the 12th dragoon regiment (French), dismounted to try to check the advance of a prussian division.

[maciek]

So now it seems that only French dragoons nad Austrian hussars fought dismounted.

[Leman]

I am now withdrawing from this particular discusssion as it seems to be going round in circles.

[cameronian]

A dismounted hussar would at a pinch do prussians and austrians; Puritan, why don'y you use the kneeling prussian jaeger for french chasseurs d'afrique (kepis/shako). I used them for my 1859 austrian hussars and they looked fine.

[Leman]

Sounds like a good idea - little bit of judicious tunic trimming if necessary - Cheers.
DP