Looking for rules that recreate WWII Panzer tactics

[Aart Brouwer]

This is a spin-off of the other thread about rulesets.

I am looking for a set of rules that reflect the gist of WWII Panzer tactics, i.e. rules that reward and/or punish the actual fighting formations as used by German armoured divisions in 1940-43, the heydays of the Blitzkrieg. Rules that reward the advantages of formations such as the double attack column (Doppelreihe), the 'wedge' (Panzer- or Abteilungskeil), 'inverted wedge' (Breitkeil), the 'caterpillar advance' (raupenartiges Vorgehen). And punish its specific weaknesses, such as the vulnerability to (Russian) mass infantry attacks coupled with AT, fast T-34 onslaughts and devastating air-ground attacks on over-concentrated armour.

I know it's a tall order, but there must be rulesets that can be more easily adapted to my wishes than the one I'm using right now, Spearhead, which is too static to my taste.

Cheers,
Aart

[Stefanpanzer]

Sounds like you need Blitzkreig Commander. It allows for all the situation you mention and includes vulnerability to command failures, more likely in an early Soviet unit than a comparable German unit at the same time.

[Gunhit]

I would think BKC is too tactical (and abstract) a gaming system to handle divisional strategies. Better look at "Panzer Korps" which is a Divisional based game similar to SPEARHEAD. 

Adrian

[Aart Brouwer]

Thanks guys, I'll be looking into both sets and report back at some later date. Meanwhile if anyone else has suggestions, please keep them coming.

And Adrian is right about the divisional level, in that I'm looking for rules that allow me roughly to pitch a Panzer division against a Soviet Corps on my ping pong table and really get those doggies moving from one end to the other and back. I've seen too many scenarios already with T-34's and Pz IV's in static situations.

Cheers,
Aart

[nikharwood]

BKC - whether in 1st ed or 2nd ed variation - will give you fluidity & will accommodate nuances of command which should reflect what you need in terms of tactical formations: they're also simple to adapt-to-fit...

(I should declare an interest here though as I'm an unashamed SMG fanboy & have contributed to Pete's rules: through playtesting, proof-reading & painting-for-included-eye-candy  )

[Aart Brouwer]

BKC - whether in 1st ed or 2nd ed variation - will give you fluidity & will accommodate nuances of command which should reflect what you need in terms of tactical formations: they're also simple to adapt-to-fit...

(I should declare an interest here though as I'm an unashamed SMG fanboy & have contributed to Pete's rules: through playtesting, proof-reading & painting-for-included-eye-candy  )

Thanks, Nik. I suppose like most wargamers I am asking too much from any set of rules. There will always be that nagging sense of inadequacy. A model on the table looks like a human (or a vehicle) but isn't supposed to behave as such since it stands for a platoon or larger unit...

[nikharwood]

BKC will play perfectly well at 1:1 as well though: no matter what scale abstraction I'm playing at, I always end up thinking at 1:1 anyway...

[Gunhit]

Exactly 

[Gunhit]

Aart: I am a member of the "Panzer Korps" Yahoo group, although I had not got the rules yet. Here is a recent message from one of the developers regarding a demo game they have just staged. May interest you 

"Last weekend, HR GAMES attended Sacramento, California's Conquest SAC convention and hosted the Vae Victis Kharkov game. Designed for PANZER KORPS by Vae Victis designers, the Kharkov game was a huge success with the game ending at 4:30am by players request.

Focused around the 3rd and 23rd Panzer Division's drive toward Kharkov from the south in early 1942 against the 48th Army, it pitted 2 Axis against 2 Soviet players. All players were new to the Panzer Korps system, but quickly picked up the fundamentals.

The scenario begins at the 12 noon Day segment and ends after 5 Day segments. The German strategic objectives were to exit 2 tank battalions and 1 motorized infantry battalion off the northern battlezone edge. We will post the complete scenario later today in the free scenarios file, but the Soviets were all Yellow Decision Die and the Germans were all White Decision Die.

The Germans entered the battlesone and immediately encountered the defending Soviet infantry speard out from their initial advance. The Germans decided to initiate a swift counter-attack and catch the Soviets off guard. Two infantry Brigades and two tank brigades with a reinforcing Soviet infantry brigade composed the defenders.

After the initial artillery barrage, the German armored spearheads of 3rd and 23rd panzer immediately overran the Soviet lines and began to penetrate aggressively with their infantry following close behind in typical German practice. Unfortunately, the Soviet infantry was determined to fight hard and did not surrender and began to cause delays in the German advance. The Soviets suffered from almost immobile reaction ability based on their Yellow Decision dice, but thier Regular/Reservist morale held their lines together.

After several German attempts to smash the Soviet lines, they were unable to do so when night fell. Faced with poor command control, the Soviets focused on an immobile defence and with limited reserves. Although the 3rd and 23rd Panzers penetrated the Soviet line, the tenacious Soviet infantry kept the German infantry pinned down in the rear. The German's did not dare advance without infantry support and had to wait and at times, support their infantry in forcing a decision.

Time was not in the German's favor that day. Can you do better. Often, players complain about the Yellow Decision Die, but it worked well in simulating the limited command ability of manuever and command control without sacrificing the ability of the Men to fight.

HR GAMES"

[Kebabman]

Thanks guys, I'll be looking into both sets and report back at some later date. Meanwhile if anyone else has suggestions, please keep them coming.

And Adrian is right about the divisional level, in that I'm looking for rules that allow me roughly to pitch a Panzer division against a Soviet Corps on my ping pong table and really get those doggies moving from one end to the other and back. I've seen too many scenarios already with T-34's and Pz IV's in static situations.

Cheers,
Aart

The best system for division/corp size games I have found is a hybrid of BKC and Spearhead.All you need is both sets of rules,just use the combat/move rules from Spearhead and all other rules from BKC.I wouldnt recommend BKC for a division size game unless you have a fondness for thousands of dice covering the battlefield.

[Aart Brouwer]

The best system for division/corp size games I have found is a hybrid of BKC and Spearhead.All you need is both sets of rules,just use the combat/move rules from Spearhead and all other rules from BKC.I wouldnt recommend BKC for a division size game unless you have a fondness for thousands of dice covering the battlefield.

Thanks, Kebabmeister. I have just ordered BKC and will look at a possible combination with Spearhead. Although thousands of dice covering the battlefield would be both a great sight as well as historically totally correct, it might also be.. cumbersome.

Cheers,
Aart

[Steve J]

I'd recommend BKC as well.

[Last Hussar]

{censored because I promised not to rant anymore}