Funny what you find in the loft

Started by Orcs, 26 July 2021, 09:40:12 PM

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Raider4

Aye, but that was in his basement. Doubt anyone's got a loft big or strong enough to keep that in!


Ithoriel

Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 27 July 2021, 06:19:06 PM
Re: 'King George's Navy'...have been reading the Patrick O' Brian books... ('Master And Commander', etc.). Now, he seemed to 'know his stuff'... but I am amazed at some of the 'possible' capabilities of sailing ship crews in the novels!
Had always assumed that various 'bits' of mast, yards, etc. ...were 'just there'... and damage was 'jury rigged' to get to port. Are the books credible? Given the size of a Frigate, just  'where' could spares be stored? And crews fully capable of 'raising or lowering', major parts of masts as 'routine' on the high seas? Or, storing 'Carronades' etc. in the hold... until required! Much 'battle damage' repaired from shipboard supplies... or go onshore to find some timber!

Artistic license or 'semi' factual? Hard to believe, but, with woodworking artisan skills and  a couple of hundred crew... 'possible'? Anyone know?

Wikipedia suggests the following

Rigging

Depending on its size and purpose a sail-powered boat may carry a limited amount of repair materials, from which some form of jury rig can be fashioned. Additionally, anything salvageable, such as a spar or spinnaker pole, could be adapted to carrying a form of sail.

Ships typically carried a selection of spare parts (e.g., items such as topmasts), but at up to 1 meter (3 ft 3 in) in diameter the lower masts were too large to freight spares. Example jury-rig configurations include:

    A spare topmast
    The main boom of a brig
    Replacing the foremast with the mizzenmast (mentioned in W. Brady's The Kedge Anchor (1852))
    The bowsprit set upright and tied to the stump of the original mast.

The jury mast knot may provide anchor points for securing makeshift stays and shrouds to support a jury mast, although there is a lack of evidence of the knot's actual historical use.

Jury rigs are not limited to boats designed for sail propulsion. Any form of craft found without power can be adapted to carry jury sail as necessary. In addition, other essential components of a boat or ship, such as a rudder or tiller, can be said to be "jury rigged" when a repair is improvised out of materials at hand.

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

Heedless Horseman

Re: Sail and rigging. Although I prefer Forrester's Hornblower, the O'Brian books seem to indicate that Sail Warships were vastly more complex and crews much more 'skilled' than I had imagined.
I have not seen HMS Trincomalee at Hartlepool close up, but even HMS Victory isn't all that big. I had never considered ships carrying spare spars or 'wood' sufficient for repairs or replacing gun carriages, boats, etc. , thinking that they would have any available space stuffed with water / food for extended service. The organisation skills just for stowage and access would put much modern business warehousing to shame... when everything was moved by muscle in very restricted space... and as for 'sending up a Topmast' by rigging tackle... in mid ocean! Frankly, becoming rather awed!

As for the complexities of 'sailing' to advantage in a 'chase' / combat... well, don't think MY brain could cope with 'Age Of Sail' gaming! lol.
(40 Yrs ago. I should have been an Angry Young Man... but wasn't.
Now... I am an Old B******! )  ;)

Heedless Horseman

As for the Panther... the amount of work that must have gone into that... I couldn't 'bodge up' my old cars enough to keep them on the road for long!  :'(( And, don't you just Love Law and Lawyers... ).
(40 Yrs ago. I should have been an Angry Young Man... but wasn't.
Now... I am an Old B******! )  ;)

sunjester

A lot of Royal Navy ships seemed to have a carpenter (or several) on board, that would seem pointless unless they also carried sufficient raw materials/spares for then to make use of?

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Yes there would be at  least 1 carpenter abord most naval vessels - this continues into artificers today. The carpenter would have had some materaials avliable, but could also improvise from stuff in the local area supposiong there were trees around. Wooden hulls and masts do have some advantage.
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Techno II

Ahem.....Back to the original point........ :D

A very big wasps' nest.....I didn't half go back down the ladder quickly.

(This was back in Notts......not here !)

Cheers - Phil. :)

fsn

Blimey! How long did it take you to run from Notts to S Wales?
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

fsn

Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 28 July 2021, 03:42:15 PM
Yes there would be at  least 1 carpenter abord most naval vessels - this continues into artificers today. The carpenter would have had some materaials avliable, but could also improvise from stuff in the local area supposiong there were trees around. Wooden hulls and masts do have some advantage.
According to "Nelson's Navy" (Brian Lavery, Conway, 1989) every ship had a carpenter and most had carpenters mates. Carpenters had to be trained ashore and then 6 months as a carpenter's mate with certificates of good conduct. Equal pay to boatswain and gunner, and had a crew of up to 10 men on a large ship.     

Responsible for "keeping the ship afloat". Had  a store room in  the orlop with a supply of timber and nails. In the event of fire the carpenters "were to open the cocks that allowed water into the pump well". 
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

chrishanley

I am sure I read of a ship that during WWII lost engine power due to enemy action and managed to jury rig sufficient sail area to get home. It may have been a Flower class corvette, but I cannot remember the name of the ship or the circumstances, but I am sure someone will...
Whilst my knowledge of sailing ships is limited to Thames Barges and 40m Sail Training ships, all quite modest compared to even a frigate of the Nelson era, I can attest that spars and yards and top-masts are hoisted aloft from the deck using just the vessels own gear.
When learning to sail on a more modest two masted 50' ketch back in the seventies the skipper would sometimes announce 'Jury Rig' day. The rules were that you could use any sail in any conceivable way, as long as it was not designed to be hoisted in that way. So the genoa would be hoisted upside down in place of the mainsail, various 'tween mast staysails would fly from the mizzen and even the storm jib suspended under the boom and sheeted back to the transom was tried. I'm not sure such fun would be allowed nowdays.
As for the Jury Knot. I have only ever seen them in those display cases of knots you see on the wall of a nautical themed pub.


FierceKitty

I know an ex-naval officer who is really good at repairing or constructing items from bits and pieces; since leaving the service to marry, he's opened a successful home renovation business. He wasn't even the one responsible for repairs on his ship. I suspect a real age of sail ship's carpenter could have improvised a 74 from a discarded matchbox and two lolly sticks.
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.

Orcs

Quote from: FierceKitty on 04 October 2021, 02:46:42 AM
I know an ex-naval officer who is really good at repairing or constructing items from bits and pieces; since leaving the service to marry, he's opened a successful home renovation business. He wasn't even the one responsible for repairs on his ship. I suspect a real age of sail ship's carpenter could have improvised a 74 from a discarded matchbox and two lolly sticks.

TWO lolly sticks!  - that sounds extravagant :)
The cynics are right nine times out of ten. -Mencken, H. L.

Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well. - Robert Louis Stevenson

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

I heard it was one cocktail stick !
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

steve_holmes_11

Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 27 July 2021, 06:19:06 PM
Re: 'King George's Navy'...have been reading the Patrick O' Brian books... ('Master And Commander', etc.). Now, he seemed to 'know his stuff'... but I am amazed at some of the 'possible' capabilities of sailing ship crews in the novels!
Had always assumed that various 'bits' of mast, yards, etc. ...were 'just there'... and damage was 'jury rigged' to get to port. Are the books credible? Given the size of a Frigate, just  'where' could spares be stored? And crews fully capable of 'raising or lowering', major parts of masts as 'routine' on the high seas? Or, storing 'Carronades' etc. in the hold... until required! Much 'battle damage' repaired from shipboard supplies... or go onshore to find some timber!

Artistic license or 'semi' factual? Hard to believe, but, with woodworking artisan skills and  a couple of hundred crew... 'possible'? Anyone know?

It's amazing what you can achieve with a windlass, block and tackle, 40 sturdy jack-tars and solid timber bits.

Bear in mind that they'd weigh anchor (maybe 2 tonnes) with the Windlass, then consider the load the masts and yards bear in a strong wind.
It's like knocking up a Meccano crane, but in big scale.

The bit that astounds me is that fairly large ships retained a single carpenter for repairs.
What those guys achieved (without power tools) is quit remarkable.

steve_holmes_11

Quote from: FierceKitty on 04 October 2021, 02:46:42 AM
I know an ex-naval officer who is really good at repairing or constructing items from bits and pieces; since leaving the service to marry, he's opened a successful home renovation business. He wasn't even the one responsible for repairs on his ship. I suspect a real age of sail ship's carpenter could have improvised a 74 from a discarded matchbox and two lolly sticks.

Those were the days before sticky-backed plastic.