Rule Heresy

Started by fsn, 18 July 2021, 08:04:42 AM

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fsn

Quote from: Westmarcher on 18 July 2021, 02:33:14 PM
What is a "modern" ruleset? Are they rules that have been released after a certain date?
I don't but many rulesets. I think the rot set in with Bruce Quarrrie's "Napoleon's Wars in Miniature" ... which was 1977.

Quote from: sultanbev on 18 July 2021, 02:53:34 PM
The lack of movement might be a morale thing, the regiment being slow to pick up their packs, or the ground is muddier or rougher than expected, or they all have dodgy engines or the crews are famished. or the regiment is tired or reluctant, or the colonel of the regiment has to explain his orders twice to his dimwitted major, or his O-group has too many questions asked, or the company captains are having trouble keeping the ranks dressed.
To a point, m'lord. As the gods of war, we know where the ground is muddy and rough. Terrain factors make legitimate impacts on movement. I accept those, but the battalion has the same dimwitted Major on move 2, 3 and 4 as they had on move 1. Putting in a rule that says "you're off but that field is muddy so you only move 1/2 speed" is fine, and I'd even accept a rule that says "this unit is green/cowardly/slothful/tired so is reluctant to advance, and will only do so if specific conditions are met", but to me that should be consistent within the game and not at the whims of the dice gods. Your grenadiers have been pushing on magnificently, but now has to stop so you can get that militia unit to defend the bridge.  At the start of the game, you as general ordered the militia brigade to advance to the bridge and generally you should be able to predict what it is going to do.   
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

mmcv

There can be a lot of confusion though on a battlefield, and usually a particular turn is only covering a short period of time, so it's not impossible that a commander might misunderstand an order, hesitate while considering the situation, not receive the order due to the messenger ending up in a ditch, or having troops who are less than keen about the idea of leaving the nice safe wall they're hiding behind and throwing themselves into the range of those scary-looking cannons...

That's what activations tend to represent. It depends how you see yourself, as a god simulating the battlefield, or as a General trying to get the troops to do what they're damn well told and stick it to the bally enemy! People, by and large, can quite often be resistant to doing things that might make them...well...die. Shocking behaviour of course, but a truth many a commander has to contend with.

paulr

Saving Throws
Keep both sides involved and allow more subtle probabilities

QuoteFor example "I need to hit on 4 or over. 5! You're hit." "I need to save on a 5 or 6!"

Odds of throwing a 4 or more = 50%.
Odds of throwing a 6 or more  = 16%
Odds of hitting is therefore 50% x 16% = 8%.

Odds of throwing a 6 = 16%. Different effect but fewer dice rolls.

Variable Moves
I am comfortable with these when used in working out the impact of rough terrain but not for open terrain

Activations
One of the things I really like about the activation system in FK&P is that it takes into account what the unit is trying to do as as well as terrain and the training/experience/size of the unit

As commander you have the ability to make decisions that influence the odds of each activation and by selecting the order of activation influence what is most likely to be achieved

This is much more satisfying than you rolled a 9 or a 12... and builds a much better narrative

I also like the card activation system of ITLSU, it generates an appropriate level of command friction when you need to draw two Tea Break cards to end a turn (and units that haven't activated get to fire at the end of the turn rather than do nothing)
Lord Lensman of Wellington
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Chad

I have been developing a set of rules for the French Revolution from a set of 80s rules 'Vive l'Empereur' by Ned Zuparko.

SAVING THROWS
None

VARIABLE MOVEMENT
Only relative to terrain

ACTIVATION
Rules are for Division being the highest Command level, so Brigade activation only. Individual unit Commanders are taken to know what they are doing as regards reaction to circumstance.
Activation failure is taken to represent failure of order interpretation, delay in order transamission, etc. Activation is then automatic
on the following turn assuming this Fog of War element has disappeared.

DICE
D10 throughout with success or lack of based on a percentage chance.

GAME SEQUENCE
Originally Simultaneous but now adjusted to an IGOUGO with as much interaction between players during a turn as possible.

BASING
A major area I fail to understand is the basing of figures in 2 ranks, 4 figures in 2 ranks for example, particularly when Linear formations are
the standard for period being gamed. Base depth has always been an issue for all figure/game ground scale, so why not base figures
In a single rank?

fred.

I think a lot of order systems come down to providing something simple and playable, that takes away some control from the player. Most players don't want to create orders for their forces - my group still speaks badly of spearhead and drawing arrows on maps.

But in your games fsn it seems that you very much want those orders defined at the start of the battle. And therefore command rolls would represent how well they are executing those orders, or when you need to change them. This is a different requirement to most rules. Over the time frame of a typical game turn there feels that a lot could happen to disrupt a units advance. I think it comes down to how many turns you typically play, if a game only has 4 turns a unit doing nothing for a turn is significant, but if you have 16 turns then this is far less of a thing. In a low turn count game you might say a failed order is half-speed rather than do nothing. The chance of successfully completing their orders should reflect  typical things such as training, commander experience, threat factors etc - things that are often part of Command Values / rolls - but the key thing is probably where the cut off for success / failure is.

But I think many of the more recent sets accept that players don't want to spend time writing a formal plan and use the command roll to restrict activity somewhat. A recent exception to this is O Group by Dave Brown, which very much expects plans and company boundaries. But still uses command points to focus effort and action.

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Chris Pringle

Quote from: fsn on 18 July 2021, 08:04:42 AM
For example "I need to hit on 4 or over. 5! You're hit." "I need to save on a 5 or 6!" 
Odds of throwing a 4 or more = 50%.
Odds of throwing a 5 or more  = 33%
Odds of hitting is therefore 50% x 33% = 16%.
Odds of throwing a 6 = 16%. Same effect but fewer dice rolls.

But if I need to save on a 6 rather than 5+, it becomes 50% x 16.7% = 8.3%. Much harder to do with a single D6. The opposed roll uses two dice to produce a bell curve of possible results, which is often better than the blunt instrument of a single D6.

Personally I like saving rolls, partly because of the probability maths, partly because of the agency/involvement element others have noted. I didn't use them for "Bloody Big BATTLES!" but I was responsible for them in the "Check Your Six!" air combat rules. These require a to-hit roll, a damage roll, and a robustness (ie saving) roll. This seems like a lot of rolls, but because most shots miss in air combat it's usually only one roll; furthermore, you actually save yourself a lot of redundant calculation that would otherwise have to be involved if you tried to resolve the whole lot with a single roll. It also allows elegance in that these rolls incorporate the chance of running out of ammo (certain doubles rolls in the to-hit roll) or suffering a critical hit (doubles on the robustness roll).

On randomised movement and activation rolls: both of these have the virtue of introducing uncertainty. There are other ways to do that - event cards, dice for command points, etc - but the essential thing is to provide a due quantity of Clausewitzian 'friction'. Depending how it is done, this can add realism (though it can be overdone). Equally importantly, having spanners thrown into the works can give a player more interesting tabletop challenges. I certainly have an aversion to 'automatic armies' where I have guaranteed control over my troops and where their progress is predictable. Hence BBB uses activation rolls.

Ithoriel

I am working, at a rate that has glaciers wondering why I'm dawdling, on rules for my Mesopotamia Early Bronze Age games and my Early Sengoku Jidai rules. In both, units start with a an order stance, denoted by a coloured die.

These are currently:

Attack (red): Move at full speed directly towards the enemy and engage them in melee combat until they or you are dead, then find a new target and repeat

Advance (orange): Move at least half speed towards the nearest enemy to your front. If armed with missile weapons stop once in range and engage them with missile fire. If armed with melee weapons engage any enemy with a lower combat factor, otherwise halt and change orders to Stand

Stand(green): May change facing but not otherwise move.

Skirmish (yellow): Move to within skirmish range and irritate the enemy into charging then run away. Rinse & repeat.

Reform(blue): May not be done if within charge or missile range of an enemy. Recover one point of Effectiveness. The first point of Effectiveness, once lost, cannot be recovered.

Road Move(purple): start on a road, end on a road, move double rate. Don't wind up in combat in this formation!

Generals have a small number of points to spend to change orders or rally troops, every turn.

Combat involves units rolling 1D6 per point of effectiveness then comparing die rolls. highest to highest, next to next and so on.

Each dice pair you win (in general) reduces your opponents effectiveness by one.

Effectiveness zero means the unit is not capable, through some or all of  losses/ exhaustion/ morale collapse, of putting up any meaningful resistance.

A minus effectiveness means the unit is routing. Routing units lose a point of effectiveness every turn. When -1xEffectiveness equals the starting effectiveness, or if the unit leaves the table, it is lost. Generals can change a routing unit's orders to Reform if a1D6 roll added to the current effectiveness is 0 or higher. He can add points to raise effectiveness further. Obviously, putting a routing unit into Reform state simply stops the constant Effectiveness drain.

Every unit involved in Melee, Missile or Skirmish combat loses a point of effectiveness at the end of the turn, win or lose.

Combat is nasty brutish and short

Whether it is a better way of introducing friction I am yet to be convinced.
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

Raider4

Quote from: paulr on 19 July 2021, 09:52:19 AM
Variable Moves

I was going to say that I've not come across a ruleset with this, and then remembered the Battle of Britain rules that have been mentioned here a couple of times - all fighters roll a d6 for movement. It works well in this instance.

fsn


@Ithoriel - like the simplicity of your idea, but doesn't the enemy get to see what you're planning?  Granted it's probably quite obvious.

@Chris Pringle -  I was using a simple example to demonstrate a point. My rules tend to use 2d6 or a d10. I'm also opposed to "automatic armies" but don't see activation as a valid response. As a general I should be aware that the 3rd brigade is a bunch of slow moving, slow witted dolts who are likely to run at the first smell of powder. I'm also aware that the 1st Brigade are the Guard and so will do what is required of them with intelligence and alacrity.  Units should continue with their orders until acted upon by an external influence. This could be a wall to climb over, an elephant dying in a mountain pass or a rain of Apache arrows from the cliffs. If the 1st bttn doesn't move because they've run out of foot salve, then the other bttns in the brigade are likely to stay put - though there will be a goodly number of chaps wearing gold braid galloping about the place. To me activation is indiscriminate and doesn't allow a general who knows his troops to make informed guesses. or troops to do things that local commanders would do as a matter of course - like shooting up that column of BMPs blithely pass the front of my M1, or forming square when threatened by cavalry or looting the enemy camp.     

@Fred - I don't think specific orders for each unit is necessary, and my concept of "orders" is that at the start of a game (unless it is an encounter game) yer general will issue general orders like "brigade 1 will advance to the bridge and hold it. Brig 3 will seek to flank the enemy. Brig 2 will maintain link between brigs 1 and 3 "  Where this becomes interesting is when things go wrong (as they invariably do when the enemy gets involved.) For me (and I'm thinking Napoleonic - or pre-radio) the brigadier can either a) continue to try and carry out their  their orders  b) request or receive new orders or c) do their own thing.
   
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

fsn

BTW, in my Napoleonic rules, orders to Brigadiers have to be carried by an ADC. He may or may not make it, but I do give him the ability to find the Brigadier unerringly.

This is why my armies have a number of single base ADC figures. 
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Ithoriel

Quote from: fsn on 19 July 2021, 06:18:47 PM
@Ithoriel - like the simplicity of your idea, but doesn't the enemy get to see what you're planning?  Granted it's probably quite obvious.

Since this is intended for my own amusement and for solo play, the enemy already knows :)
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paulr

Quote from: fred. on 19 July 2021, 12:33:51 PM
I think a lot of order systems come down to providing something simple and playable, that takes away some control from the player. Most players don't want to create orders for their forces - my group still speaks badly of spearhead and drawing arrows on maps.

...

But I think many of the more recent sets accept that players don't want to spend time writing a formal plan and use the command roll to restrict activity somewhat. A recent exception to this is O Group by Dave Brown, which very much expects plans and company boundaries. But still uses command points to focus effort and action.

We really enjoy the planning required and arrow drawing of Spearhead :-B

So you don't want to see the Appreciations and Operational orders I've written for some of our big multiple player Modern Spearhead games then ;D
A fellow wargamer reviewed one of them and commented that they would have received a pass at the NZ Staff College where he was an instructor :o
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fred.

I think a lot probably comes down to how much time and effort people have available to setup a game. We play on Friday evenings, and for many of the players pulling together an army list and their figures in time to get to the game for the start is often significant effort after work etc.

Therefore we tend to fall back on what we know / are familiar with which is army list in the GW style and planning of the game/battle happening during the game.

There are definitely times were a more organised setup works, but these are fewer, and perhaps link more with when we get together for a bigger game. 
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2016 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
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Chris Pringle

Quote from: fsn on 19 July 2021, 06:18:47 PM
@Chris Pringle I'm also opposed to "automatic armies" but don't see activation as a valid response. As a general I should be aware that the 3rd brigade is a bunch of slow moving, slow witted dolts who are likely to run at the first smell of powder. I'm also aware that the 1st Brigade are the Guard and so will do what is required of them with intelligence and alacrity.  Units should continue with their orders until acted upon by an external influence. [...] To me activation is indiscriminate and doesn't allow a general who knows his troops to make informed guesses. or troops to do things that local commanders would do as a matter of course    

Sorry, fsn, my earlier reply didn't do your valid point justice (I got interrupted and only posted half of what I meant to say).

Activation doesn't have to be indiscriminate. In BBB we might rate your 3rd Bde as Raw, Passive and Fragile and not represent their General. Thus their activation roll would be at a -1; once Disrupted they would also suffer a -1; after the first casualty they would become Spent, another -2. Conversely, your Guards are Veterans and get a General. He gives them a +1 on their activations and most of them will die before the formation is Spent.

But it is true that activation produces erratic effects that don't entirely reflect how a military machine operates, even one subject to friction. Take the oft-quoted views of Archduke Charles on the difference between the Austrian and French armies. The rigidly hierarchical Austrians were hidebound by duty and rules and extremely wary of doing anything not explicitly ordered or sanctioned by the noble above them. The revolutionary French were brought up on breaking rules and seizing the initiative and gambling, because the risk of failure was less than the risk of being guillotined if the Directory thought you weren't trying hard enough. This meant that on a regular linear battlefield, the tidily organized Austrians were utterly dependable and superior; but when it came to operating in multiple independent columns in Switzerland or the more rugged parts of Italy or Germany, the French danced all over the paralysed Austrians. BBB's activation mechanism can do a reasonable job of reproducing that (only make the Austrians Passive or leave their Generals off if they are split up?) but it is not perfect. Other methods might portray it better.

Chris