Attacking bunkers

Started by Amra, 13 May 2021, 02:19:06 PM

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Amra

Hi All ,
Trying out pillboxes and bunker scenarios , so new questions 😀
1) A bunker buster capable gun fires on a bunker
        It hits on 6 ? How does it destroy the bunker? I can't find anything on the hits buildings,bunkers etc take
2) Firing on a pillbox
     Can I target it from all around ? I hit units inside on 6 ? When AFVs fire on the pillbox do they use AT or AP ?
Thanks

pbeccas

Hi Amra

From my understanding you don't actually target the bunker or pillbox.  You are targeting the unit inside.  So usually 6 to hit, and a 4+ to save in a bunker, or 5+ save in a pillbox.  You don't destroy the bunker.

When shooting at pillboxes you can only target the front firing arc and you are using AP because the target inside are infantry or a gun team.

Cold War Commander used to have some optional rules which allocated hits and saves to bunkers so you could destroy them.  Nothing stopping you using them in BKC.

light bunker 6 hits, saves on a 5+
medium bunker 9 hits, saves on a 4+
Hvy bunker 12 hits, saves on a 3+

I used to play a lot of BKC II and scanning the book,  the bunker rules in BKCIV do not appear any different. 

Hope that helps? 

Big Insect

Hi there -I must have missed this post 1st time around.

pbeccas is correct in everything he states

By all means play an optional rule that allows you to target and potentially destroy the bunker itself. You will inflict casualties on the occupants/defenders at the same time.
I dont have a copy of BKCII to hand but I am sure some kind soul might post up the basics of how it worked.

Cheers
Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

pbeccas

Quote from: Big Insect on 14 May 2021, 01:39:44 PM
I dont have a copy of BKCII to hand but I am sure some kind soul might post up the basics of how it worked.
Mark

It was never in BKC II Mark.  They were optional rules in Cold War Commander.  Basically shoot at the bunker with AT, treat bunkers exactly the same as tanks with the roll save.  And we used to leave hits on otherwise you can never destroy them.  Troops inside never ran, and they died when the bunker blew up.  It was simple.

Big Insect

Quote from: pbeccas on 15 May 2021, 09:54:07 AM
It was never in BKC II Mark.  They were optional rules in Cold War Commander.  Basically shoot at the bunker with AT, treat bunkers exactly the same as tanks with the roll save.  And we used to leave hits on otherwise you can never destroy them.  Troops inside never ran, and they died when the bunker blew up.  It was simple.

Sounds like a very sensible option - thanks
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Amra

Um sorry but
The rules say
Special Ability
Bunker Buster ( p75) "Unit can target the bunker or building without having to target the unit inside "

Field Defenses (p62)
Hard Buildings " can be targeted by direct fire ...and be destroyed.(They) have both a hit and save of 6 against these attacks "

So I do target the building/bunker . How many hits does it take please ? I'm only using the BKCIV rules so a reference to where it is in there would be great

Thanks



pbeccas

Quote from: Amra on 15 May 2021, 03:47:15 PM
The rules say
Special Ability
Bunker Buster ( p75) "Unit can target the bunker or building without having to target the unit inside "

There are no mention anywhere in the rules or optional rules with a hit number for any structure.  That's why I pointed to the Cold War Commander optional rules.

Quote from: Amra on 15 May 2021, 03:47:15 PM

Field Defenses (p62)
Hard Buildings " can be targeted by direct fire ...and be destroyed.(They) have both a hit and save of 6 against these attacks "

I'm confused.  In my rule book on page 62 there is no mention of this at all in the field defence section?

In addition your first quote you said the special ability rules are on page 75?  They are on page 76 in my book?  Have we got the same rule book?  I only got mine a month ago.

Itinerant Hobbyist

Paul,
I just downloaded my updated PDF and HARD buildings been added to the book. It was updated Mar 2020. It may also be in the errata...let me check.

Itinerant Hobbyist


pbeccas

I just went through all the army lists.  Only two weapon types have bunker busting ability.  The German 88 AA gun in its many formats.  And the Soviet 280mm M1939 Mortar.  

pbeccas


pbeccas

Quote from: Amra on 15 May 2021, 03:47:15 PM
So I do target the building/bunker . How many hits does it take please ? I'm only using the BKCIV rules so a reference to where it is in there would be great

After discovering extra rules 😜, thank Todd.

The answer is 6 hits.

"Hard Buildings have both a Hit and Save value of 6 against these attacks (other weapons have no significant effect), can be Suppressed but can never Fall-back. They have no Flanks or Rears."

Ithoriel

Quote from: pbeccas on 16 May 2021, 01:08:40 AM
After discovering extra rules 😜, thank Todd.

The answer is 6 hits.

"Hard Buildings have both a Hit and Save value of 6 against these attacks (other weapons have no significant effect), can be Suppressed but can never Fall-back. They have no Flanks or Rears."

We read that as "6 to hit" and "6 to save" and have been allocating hit values according to the size of the structure. A concrete pill box and a D-Day style command bunker are very different propositions.
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

pbeccas

Hitting a giant bunker wouldn't need just a 6?  Surely 4+?  They are huge.  And probably 3+ save?

Very strange rules?

Anyways, the real question.  Did  the Germans really use 88 Flak guns as bunker busters? 



Amra

Ha now you see my problem !  :)

I read it that you need a 6 to hit the bunker , but maybe that's wrong .
I cant see anywhere that mentions different types of hard building targets ( different buildings or bunkers)
As many scenarios have these fortifications its important to work out I think

For what its worth , I'm playing Western Desert where the 88 was used in this role
It's weird the Brummbar doesn't have the capability as I thought that's what it was designed for....