Were mounted camel archers actually a thing?

Started by mmcv, 19 April 2021, 03:16:43 PM

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mmcv

Yeah, the idea would be light horse archers are zipping about the battlefield evading and harassing but have a generally shorter range than foot archers. I'm going for big battle abstraction over modelling every detail of the combat so in the scope of a turn it's probably fine to assume the camel mounted archers are moving to a good position then dismounting to fire.

Big Insect

Quote from: Shedman on 19 April 2021, 04:27:23 PM
Mark "Big Insect" Fry is your man for stuff like this and cataphract camels as well.

I researched camels for my 1840 Algeria project and found no evidence that camels were used in combat.

There are a few pieces of artwork representing camels in skirmishes but nothing in large battles or close combat.

My understanding, from reading various c19th French & British books, was that the camel was used in a strategic role.

It got them to the battlefield and then the troops either fought on foot or on horseback.

Have a look at Small Wars by Major C.E Callwell . He basically says that they are fine for getting to a battle but rubbish in a battle

This is one of those ongoing wargames topics - that rears its ugly, spitting, bad breathed, head every so often.

Earliest depictions of camels in warfare appear to be the Assyrian reliefs of mounted Midianite camel raiders (2 per camel) being 'seen-off' by Assyrian horse archers.
The archers on the camels are shown as loosing their bow whilst mounted.

You then see depictions in Seleucid/Successor armies of allied Aramaean camel riders - they of the very long swords - that also have bows. But whether they used the bow mounted is guesswork. These same camel warriors appear in later post Successor Hatran and other Aramaean/Syrian city-state armies through to the Parthian and Sasanian era. Palmyran city state military camelry appears to be spear armed with no bows (as were Middle Imperial Roman camel units). However, I think it is highly likely that the Palmyran & Roman camelry were more likely mounted infantry equivalents. There is a great depiction of a mail armoured camel lancer from gandhara - showing the saddel on the back of the camel hump - as we see today in modern camel racing. This is clearly a mounted offensive warrior. Hatrans & Parthians both seemed to have experimented with cataphract armoured camels - with no great success as the Roman Legionaries they were attacking just scattered caltraps across their front and the soft-feet of the camels was especially vulnerable to them.

You can read of camels being used by Arab Conquest Muslim armies using camels - but mainly as transports to the battlefield - although there is a Sasanian reference to the use of iron spikes as field defences to protect Sasanian infantry from arab horses and camel attacks. Central Asian Silk Road city states and certain chinese & tibetan armies used camels - but again it appears to be mainly as a mode of transport to allow infantry to keep up with the horse mounted arm of the armies.

From a wargames perspective the most 'insidious' representation of camels has appeared relatively recently with a plethora of almost invincible Tuareg and Beja type camel mounted armies, which I view a bit like the D'reg from the Terry Pratchett Disc-world novels and I quote:
" The D'regg are a cheerfully anarchistic desert tribe in Klatch who will fight anyone on general principles"!
NB: I did once fight against a HoTT D'regg army with the camels as knights and the foot warriors as Warband and an assortment of wild domesticated animals - chicken, sheep, goats & donkeys as Beasts - it was very effective.

And finally to the question ... did medieval 'Saracen' type armies use mounted camel archers? Personally I doubt it - I can find no references to them doing so.

I hope that is helpful

Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

mmcv

Very helpful, thank you!

I've also yet to find any references to it in period either, other than as transport and baggage.

Raider4

Having seen how bloody awkward it is to get on & off camels close-up, and seen how precarious people look when perched upon the saddle when mounted, I find it difficult to imagine camels being used in any sort of frontline action.

Big Insect

24 April 2021, 05:47:08 PM #34 Last Edit: 24 April 2021, 05:57:44 PM by Big Insect
Quote from: mmcv on 24 April 2021, 12:47:44 PM
Very helpful, thank you!
I've also yet to find any references to it in period either, other than as transport and baggage.

The closest visual depiction I can find, of a military camel, to the timeframe you refer to, is a very nice c.11th/12th century Byzantine mosaic in the cathedral at Palermo (the Palatine Chapel in Palermo's Norman Palace) of an unarmoured Arab lancer/spearman, with a shield on a camel. However, we are none the wiser from this depiction as to whether he is willing and able to fight mounted or is just using the camel as a means of transport.

There are Kushan ceramic bowls showing hunting scenes of bows being used from camel-back - there are also metal (silver) Sassanid plates showing kings hunting with bows from camel-back - but again no military depictions.

C19th English written accounts of the Sudan Wars state that both the Dervish and Beja were prepared to engage in mounted combat from camel-back - but that was with swords, spears and match-lock muskets.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.


Keraunos

This quote is from Appian's Syrian War, an account of the Romans war against Antiochus III, describing the troops Antiochus fielded at the battle of Magnesia -

"There were also other mounted archers from the Dahae, Mysia, Elymais, and Arabia, riding on swift dromedaries, who shot arrows with dexterity from their high position, and used very long thin knives when they came to close combat."


Big Insect

That all sounds very plausible - especially the "long thin knives" as opposed to 6 feet long swords!

According to our old friend Wiki - "The first recorded use of the camel as a military animal was by the Arab king Gindibu, said to have employed as many as 1,000 camels at the Battle of Qarqar in 853 BC." Which was fought against the Assyrians and the 'Arabs' referred to were Midianites, back then.

Cyrus the Great used camels, with platforms and archers on their backs, as also quoted by Herodotus at the Battle of Thymbra against the Lydians. But they appear to have been used primarily as a means of disrupting the Lydian cavalry.

Personally I've always been of the view that compared to a horse a camel comes a pretty poor second. So having all camels, no matter how armed or motivated, depicted as 'mediocre' or 'inferior' or 'Poor' (whatever terminology your rules use) is probably sensible.

 :D
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Keraunos

I came across a rule set the other day that classified camels as "Bad Horse", which, given the character of camels, is a nice thought.

Ithoriel

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

steve_holmes_11

Similar to elephants and scythed chariots.

Camels appear to have features in a tiny number of victories where their particular qualities came to the fore.
Horse frightening, ability to force march through terrain considered impassable.

So, like elephants and scythed chariots, they've entered the world of ancient wargaming through the medium of army lists.


My observation about ancient warfare is that historians rarely describe weapons and tactics in the kind of detail that modern wargamers desire.
(I've probably posted this before).
A trip back to the classical world sees most male citizens with army experience, or  nominally part of a militia.
These guys didn't need a detailed description of weapons and rations, or the progress of a typical military engagement.
So the tales were written to feature the unique details of that campaign.

It's a style that emphasizes the exotic and unusual.
The risk is creating an unbalanced view of some of warfare's mechanics.

FierceKitty

Since the case has been reopened, the Parthian or Hatrene cataphract camels would make very little sense if they weren't intended for riding into action. 
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