Were mounted camel archers actually a thing?

Started by mmcv, 19 April 2021, 03:16:43 PM

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steve_holmes_11

Quote from: mmcv on 20 April 2021, 11:32:00 AM
Certainly, there's a lot of speculation and guesswork in historical gaming, that's part of the fun. I particularly enjoy ancients because you do have to tease out the details and think about what's reasonable and sensible given what we know so far. Even for more recent periods with their mountains of information and playing purely historical scenarios once the action moves away from the historical outcomes then you're essentially creating a fantasy version of what happened. But it would be pretty dull otherwise as we'd just be running simulations!

Certainly it seems sensible to allow camels to be treated differently, but more as a type of infantry transport. I may add a modifier to the charge test to make cavalry a bit more reluctant to charge camels though. I'm in two minds whether to model the mounting and dismounting aspects of it. I'll do that with knights because it was more of a big deal, but if these guys tend to just hop on and off as needed it probably makes sense to have them as slightly more mobile infantry, possibly without the means to evade and very little combat ability and just abstract the mounting and dismounting.

I think that's an excelent call.
I've played rules that had provision for dismounting, horseholders, moving dismounted, re-mounting, and it all seemed like a massive distraction.
Most of the recently written rules I've read do what you describe.

For the heavier shock types, dismounting is usually a permanent transition (they may also re-arm swapping lance for Poleaxe).
The more shooty types tend to remain mounted (Though creative players sometimes mix in some men on foot), move a bit quicker than foot skirmishers, but sacrifice some or all movement if they wish to shoot.
It's a lot less fuss, particularly for armies that had a lot of mounted infantry - quite a range: Elamites, Boers, Aussie Light Horse...

mmcv

Yeah the dismount action for knights and other such heavier troops is a more permanent state, either forming a small foot unit of their own or joining a larger body of men as a heavier front line. Don't think there need to be horse holders as the knights would be accompanied by squires and the like in battle anyway so they would probably just follow on foot or take the horses back behind the lines. Same for some of the heavier Islamic cavalry which would sometimes fight on foot.

Don't want to go too mad.adding possibilities for every eventuality, unusual cases can be covered in scenario rules.

GrumpyOldMan

Nothing like a camel mounted gatling gun to spice things up.....


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steve_holmes_11

Quote from: GrumpyOldMan on 20 April 2021, 11:19:26 PM
Nothing like a camel mounted gatling gun to spice things up.....



Who's the boss of all the camels?

Orcs

I seem to remember the main reason for using camels was to make your opponents horse mounted cavalry very skittish.

Not that horses need much to make them skittish.
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steve_holmes_11

Quote from: Orcs on 21 April 2021, 03:44:27 PM
I seem to remember the main reason for using camels was to make your opponents horse mounted cavalry very skittish.

Not that horses need much to make them skittish.

Carry more than horses, faster over long distances than horses, and go longer between fuel stops.
All of which are great "Top trumps" for your baggage train or mounted infantry.

I have enough trouble imaging combat on horseback.
Trying to figure out whether it's possible on camels is way beyond me.

John Cook

It seems to me that as far as mounted troops among the Islamic armies of the Middle Ages are concerned, the horse predominates, by a very long way indeed.  My little knowledge is confined, more or less, to the Battle of Hattin and the fall of the Kingdom of Jerusalem and I have yet to find examples of camel mounted-troops in the Ayyubid armies of that time although I am confident they were used for baggage, as draught animals and also for meat and milk.
On the other hand I'm aware of the existence of camel-mounted archers in other Muslim medieval armies.   But I'm unsure about their tactical employment and as bows were certainly fired from horse back, I see no practical reason to prevent them being fired from the back of a camel.  I suspect though, that camel-mounted troops were more of the nature of mounted infantry, rather like mounted crossbowmen who dismounted to fight.

flamingpig0

I remember that quite ludicrously that the double mounted Midianite camel commandos were  devastatingly effective in WRG 7th.
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 22 April 2021, 03:08:31 AM
I remember that quite ludicrously that the double mounted Midianite camel commandos were  devastatingly effective in WRG 7th.

Probably cause Sue barker had some...
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DecemDave

Since my previous non answer, I have been skimming me books and all I have so far is another non answer although this time it does support the idea of mounting on camels  for mobility on campaign but not everyone fighting that way:

Aram's book on Khalid Bin Al-Waleed ("The Sword of Allah")  p271 ISBN 978-0-954866-52-5
The main instruments that Khalid used to make his ambitious manoeuvres so successful were the fighting quality of the Muslims and the mobility of the army.....Though only part of the army was actual cavalry, the entire army was camel mounted for movement........

This is the army that overcame the non believer Arabs and went on to overrun most of the Middle East.
 
The book focuses on how generalship, strategy,  manoeuvre, morale, terrain and deployment win battles. there is very little on specific weaponry.  Sorry WRG

So you could certainly field tabletop camel mounted archers in this army much as you might field mounted dragoons in an ECW or Napoleonic one.

mmcv

Quote from: DecemDave on 22 April 2021, 10:02:27 AM
Since my previous non answer, I have been skimming me books and all I have so far is another non answer although this time it does support the idea of mounting on camels  for mobility on campaign but not everyone fighting that way:

Aram's book on Khalid Bin Al-Waleed ("The Sword of Allah")  p271 ISBN 978-0-954866-52-5
The main instruments that Khalid used to make his ambitious manoeuvres so successful were the fighting quality of the Muslims and the mobility of the army.....Though only part of the army was actual cavalry, the entire army was camel mounted for movement........

This is the army that overcame the non believer Arabs and went on to overrun most of the Middle East.
 
The book focuses on how generalship, strategy,  manoeuvre, morale, terrain and deployment win battles. there is very little on specific weaponry.  Sorry WRG

So you could certainly field tabletop camel mounted archers in this army much as you might field mounted dragoons in an ECW or Napoleonic one.


Thanks, that's good to know. Arab Conquest is another on my long long todo list, especially since many of the later Arab forces can proxy for earlier and vice versa and it would be fun to get some Byzantines and Sassanids on the go.

I think treating as mounted infantry is probably the way to go. I'll probably class them as some form of Mob/Rabble (i.e. low combat ability) but otherwise as foot archers (possibly small) with a larger movement range. Then assume they're just hopping on and off to shoot without worrying too much about it.

FierceKitty

I'm not sure I'd care to hop on and off. Camels are big.
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steve_holmes_11

Quote from: FierceKitty on 22 April 2021, 10:59:58 AM
I'm not sure I'd care to hop on and off. Camels are big.

They're fairly good at kneeling and staning up again while fully loaded, if properly trained.

Here's one that required the jockey to hop off.


steve_holmes_11

I suppose the key consideration for a game design is whether dismounting makes a difference.

The mounted archers might remain mounted and plink away form their swaying saddles.
Or they might stop, hop off and shoot from terra firma.

If camel mounted archers were some kind of highly mobile LRDG/SAS type strike force, then hopping off causes some problems.
But if (as we appear to suspect), they weren't particularly quick, then a bit of a rush to the shooting point, followed by some rapid volleys on foot might be perfectly adequate.

The shooters will have their camels with them, whether sat on, or stood beside.
If you go in for horse worrying, then the effect is still there.
Which reminds me of something about Cyrus sticking his men behind a line of baggage camels to upset Croesus' scary impetuous cavalry.

Here's Wikipedia with mostly extracts from ancient historians - two suspect sources for the price of one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel_cavalry