Has there ever been a case of infantry attacking cavalry?

Started by mmcv, 27 March 2021, 11:10:38 AM

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mmcv

I'm thinking particularly in the ancient/medieval sphere of things. I'm trying to think if I've ever come across an account of formed infantry charging cavalry successfully (i.e. without the cavalry just running away).

Certainly cavalry have charged infantry then other infantry joined the fight when the horse were bogged down, but a unit of cavalry being charged by infantry doesn't make a lot of sense.

Light infantry and skirmishers and the like may harass cavalry, but I'm thinking actual formed medium/heavy infantry.

The other thing is cavalry on cavalry combat usually degenerated into a swirling mass of horseflesh and steel. I can't see any infantry unit wading into that mess where it would be as likely you'd get mauled by your allies horses as your enemies.

Yet many wargaming rules allow such behaviour as a matter of course.

Pondering my own homebrew Crusades rules and was something that came to mind given the numerous cavalry actions in the region.

FierceKitty

My own control rules seriously restrict most infantry from trying to engage horse frontally. Swiss?
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

The British at Minden but it's rather out of period
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mmcv

Quote from: FierceKitty on 27 March 2021, 11:13:01 AM
My own control rules seriously restrict most infantry from trying to engage horse frontally. Swiss?

Yeah, though again in most cases that would be more to drive them off than actually engage. It's probably sensible to allow infantry to advance on cavalry but they can always evade it, unless they get cornered or driven into impassible terrain.

Quote from: ianrs54 on 27 March 2021, 11:15:12 AM
The British at Minden but it's rather out of period

Yeah, not a period I'm too familiar on yet, but I suspect gunpowder and engaging from range would aid things there, I doubt it would have been so successful with just spears?

FierceKitty

The French at Minden also ran for it, though it was a moral triumph for the British. But there was a case of a disgraced Prussian unit which flank-charged a cavalry unit to regain its credit and get its drums and colours back. Confined space, and there was bayonette work.
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Hwiccee

At Minden the British (and some Hanoverians with them) did an uncontrolled advance towards the French cavalry then stopped in a dip before contacting them. The French cavalry then attacked the British/Hanoverians in the dip.

fsn

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mmcv

Quote from: fsn on 27 March 2021, 11:40:39 AM
Morgarten?



Interesting, though reading up on that there it seems that was an ambush on a drawn out column in a pass followed by driving them to the lake, so does fit into the theme of it only being feasible where you can push them into terrain they can't evade from.

I suspect giving cavalry the ability to always evade, unless terrain prevents them, is possibly the best option. Rather than requiring an evade test or the like. Then only in rare cases where they let themselves be driven into a corner would infantry fall on them directly.

mmcv

I'm testing this out on the table as we speak, just using some of the crusades forces I had out and a very lose approximation of my thinking on rules. The men at arms are getting pushed back into the archers firing line and disordered but the infantry are starting to lose resolve repeatedly pushing towards cavalry.

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Quote from: mmcv on 27 March 2021, 11:48:43 AM
I suspect giving cavalry the ability to always evade, unless terrain prevents them, is possibly the best option. Rather than requiring an evade test or the like. Then only in rare cases where they let themselves be driven into a corner would infantry fall on them directly.

Not always true - The Cataphacts in Byzantine armies rode toe to toe, so turning about would have been a tad difficult. Yes loose and open order stuff could get away, but I suspect that Western Knights charging en hay would also find it a problem.
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mmcv

Quote from: ianrs54 on 27 March 2021, 11:56:05 AM


Not always true - The Cataphacts in Byzantine armies rode toe to toe, so turning about would have been a tad difficult. Yes loose and open order stuff could get away, but I suspect that Western Knights charging en hay would also find it a problem.

Hmm good point on cataphracts. Most rules do tend to treat them differently, they are almost like faster moving super heavy infantry so yes evade there likely doesn't make sense.

For western knights though, I'd think they'd only be formed up close when they were doing the charging home bit and even then doesn't seem to be knee to knee. Prior to that they'd have been more maneuverable so not as prone to being charged. It seemed to be a common tactic for them to play chicken with formed infantry, charge at them and hope they break and if they don't wheel away at the last moment, maybe chucking a spear or jabbing at a gap on the way past. Or moving up more slowly supported by ranged troops to break the line before they charge in.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Quote from: mmcv on 27 March 2021, 12:03:20 PM
Hmm good point on cataphracts. Most rules do tend to treat them differently, they are almost like faster moving super heavy infantry so yes evade there likely doesn't make sense.

For western knights though, I'd think they'd only be formed up close when they were doing the charging home bit and even then doesn't seem to be knee to knee. Prior to that they'd have been more maneuverable so not as prone to being charged. It seemed to be a common tactic for them to play chicken with formed infantry, charge at them and hope they break and if they don't wheel away at the last moment, maybe chucking a spear or jabbing at a gap on the way past. Or moving up more slowly supported by ranged troops to break the line before they charge in.

That is waht happened on Senlac hill, but in 1066 the cavalry may not have been using couched spears.
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mmcv

Quote from: ianrs54 on 27 March 2021, 12:09:59 PM
That is waht happened on Senlac hill, but in 1066 the cavalry may not have been using couched spears.

Certainly the tapestry seems to show them used over arm/thrown and the like more than couched. Accounts from the first crusade a few decades later also mention throwing their spears.

Westmarcher

Quote from: mmcv on 27 March 2021, 11:19:11 AM
It's probably sensible to allow infantry to advance on cavalry but they can always evade it, unless they get cornered or driven into impassible terrain.

Possibly the second day at Bannockburn; initial cavalry charges failing to break the Scots line, followed by the Scots moving forward pressing them against the English foot and cornering them into impassable terrain. Appears possible if infantry don't wild charge but steadily advance keeping compact formation, cavalry disordered or blown after repeated charges(?) and nowhere for cavalry to evade to.
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mmcv

Quote from: Westmarcher on 27 March 2021, 01:06:51 PM
Possibly the second day at Bannockburn; initial cavalry charges failing to break the Scots line, followed by the Scots moving forward pressing them against the English foot and cornering them into impassable terrain. Appears possible if infantry don't wild charge but steadily advance keeping compact formation, cavalry disordered or blown after repeated charges(?) and nowhere for cavalry to evade to.

Yeah, seems reasonable. I'm taking a little inspiration from the Twilight of.. series and requiring tests of resolve for certain actions, that can back fire and cause disorders and routs. So cavalry in a difficult situation would have to test their resolve to charge or maneuver away, and at a disadvantage there's more chance of them becoming worse.