Crusades

[Orcs]

Just one thing to do... just as we all stocked TP due to corona as we did not know what was going to happen we now better also stock on figures concerning the Crusades. And I'll be damned if I'm going to call that period anything else 

Well Said.  I am not politically correct at all. 

[hammurabi70]

Well Said.  I am not politically correct at all. 

As a serious question, has anybody ever suggested an alternative?  I have never heard of one but the term 'crusade' might be used a bit loosely; did not Eisenhower put Crusade in Europe on his memoirs?

[mmcv]

As a serious question, has anybody ever suggested an alternative?  I have never heard of one but the term 'crusade' might be used a bit loosely; did not Eisenhower put Crusade in Europe on his memoirs?

Certainly my perception has been less a case of "renaming the crusades" and more a case of "crusade" being seen as a negative thing. If you say someone is on a crusade against something it usually has connotations of being futile, excessive and possibly unreasonably aggressive.

The narrative is more in how "nasty and evil" the crusades were rather than any PC attempt to rename them. Feeding into the"European Imperialist Swine" idea (never minding the Islamic Imperialist Expansion that triggered them). A lot of that also comes from some modern rhetoric amongst more right wing elements, particularly in America, misconstruing the history to their own ends, thus turning their left wing opponents further against the historical realities.

Of course even the word Crusades is a later invention, not used by the original participants.

[FierceKitty]

Certainly my perception has been less a case of "renaming the crusades" and more a case of "crusade" being seen as a negative thing. If you say someone is on a crusade against something it usually has connotations of being futile, excessive and possibly unreasonably aggressive.

The narrative is more in how "nasty and evil" the crusades were rather than any PC attempt to rename them. Feeding into the"European Imperialist Swine" idea (never minding the Islamic Imperialist Expansion that triggered them). A lot of that also comes from some modern rhetoric amongst more right wing elements, particularly in America, misconstruing the history to their own ends, thus turning their left wing opponents further against the historical realities.

Of course even the word Crusades is a later invention, not used by the original participants.

I think I'm willing to follow Runciman's verdict on the whole dam' business.

[mmcv]

I think I'm willing to follow Runciman's verdict on the whole dam' business.

Good storytelling but bad history?   

I enjoy the more nuanced view of them that modern scholars give, when it's less biased. I guess I'm just not much of a romantic.

[hammurabi70]

Good storytelling but bad history?   

I enjoy the more nuanced view of them that modern scholars give, when it's less biased. I guess I'm just not much of a romantic.

Agreed. 

In the modern globalising world I appreciate we need a wider sensitivity but one frequently has a view that this seems to be a one-way street.

[FierceKitty]

I wonder how many modern scholars with their devotion to theory have read a quarter of the original sources that Sir Stephen did, even in translation.

[Roel]

Well whatever the current opinion and/or concensus -> I ordered many many Crusader and Saracen figures and hope they will get here soon 😎 Playing Total War make my eyes go 

[Nick the Lemming]

I wonder how many modern scholars with their devotion to theory have read a quarter of the original sources that Sir Stephen did, even in translation.

As a medieval historian, I can positively assert that modern scholars of the crusades do a lot of work on the subject, focusing almost entirely on primary sources in medieval Latin. I was lucky enough as a grad student (before i went on to do my PhD in medieval history) to take classes on the crusades under the esteemed scholar Giles Constable, and I can assure you that he and the other participants were rigoorous in our study of the periods and theatre.

The crusades aren't my field of expertise (that's medieval monasticism, which has some crossover due to corresponding military orders connected to the Cistercians in particular - my papers were concerned with preaching the crusades in the main and the rhetoric used, and on the effect of "crusaders" who chose closer targets, such as local towns and their Jewish population rather than going anywhere near the Holy Land), but the articles I read in conjunction with my studies for Prof. Constable's classes were thoroughly well-researched from primary sources.

I'm not aware of any attempts to rename the crusades, other than the widely accepted notion that the "reconquista" in Spain was no such thing, but if you want to discuss that in more detail and the porous nature of the supposed borders between the "Christian" and "Muslim" parts of Spain, I'd be happy to do so in PMs. Then again, even the most conservative-inclined scholars and whig historians (who are also just as bound by theory and ideology as the supposedly politically correct left wing historians, if not even more so) accept that there were people of both sides fighting for and against each other there (and in the Holy Land). El Cid is the best known example, of course. In both Spain and the Holy Land, there was a lot more cultural and political mingling than most people realise.

[Leon]

The Crusades were one of the first periods of history that I read a 'real' book about and it was really interesting. 

[FierceKitty]

Part of my point, Nick. It was Runciman who demonstrated that a real crusades scholar needed to read rather a lot that wasn't written in Latin or French. A look at his bibliographies is a frightening experience!

[sultanbev]

Nick, I am interested in the history of Georgia at the time of the Crusades, I haven't yet seen a good history book on them, any recommendations?

Mark

[Nick the Lemming]

Part of my point, Nick. It was Runciman who demonstrated that a real crusades scholar needed to read rather a lot that wasn't written in Latin or French. A look at his bibliographies is a frightening experience!

That's actually another point against the older, more conservative historians - they did tend to look at only western sources, and not those from the Islamic or Jewish world, in part because of their ideological bent.

[Nick the Lemming]

Nick, I am interested in the history of Georgia at the time of the Crusades, I haven't yet seen a good history book on them, any recommendations?

Mark

Mark, if you can PM me your email address, I can send you a bibliography on Georgian crusades from about 5 years ago ish with a brief introductory essay on the current (as was) state of research.

[Roel]

Are there any shield decals on the market? Crosses, Lions etc.