Veteran German Infantry Stats - North Africa

Started by michaelk, 01 February 2021, 09:45:00 PM

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michaelk

Hi all,

Been enjoying the rules very much. If i ever figure out how to post pictures I will begin to post with AARs. I am seeking to confirm that German Veteran Infantry has an AP 3/30. I ask as the similar British, Italians Veteran and US  infantry are all rated with 4/30?

Thanks in advance.


Orcs

I believe the veteran rating is more about the units tsying power as they roll one less dice when falling back.

I belieive the  3/30 rating is their firepower, but I am not sure how this has been arrived at 

In BKC2 DAK are still 3/30, Italians, British are 4/30 and Americans are 5/30. Again I am not sure how the Americans qualified for 5/30


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Steve J

Welcome on board and I'm sure Mark will be along soon to confirm the stats are right or are a typo.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Hi. Yes the 3/30 is their firepower rating and Experianced is a morale thing . Reason all infantry is similar is that the weapons are. Feel free to ask any other questions.
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sultanbev

Most DAK motorised squads have 2x MG34 per squad, so I have rated them as 5/30 for A/P factor, as well as being Veteran.

Big Insect

I think that the original theory behind the 3/30 was the lower numbers of men in the formation and the higher percentage of sub-machineguns.
But I am not the expert here  :)

The 2 MGs per squad would justify the 5/30 rating and as ORC says veteran is about their staying power. It also makes them a lot more cautious (reflecting the experience gained in previous combats).
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michaelk

Thanks all for your responses. I understand that Veteran provides special abilities while the number/number refers to range and dice. Just struck as curious that similar infantry platoons were rated differently. I purchased the micro mark german 15th panzer division list from wargame vault and did notice the 5/30 dice rating.

I guess just gaining a understanding as to why an Italian or British platoon would receive an extra die would be interesting. Your answers have already offered that insight.

Again thanks.


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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Bear in mind that that is Mark B's rating - it's not wrong pre se, but I would have been tempted to go 4/30 or may be 4/40. US studies (The Stratigic Bomber Survey - it covers everything though) indicate that not many riflemen used aimed fire, the British had the highest proportion of those. The LMG in all but US squads was 50% of the fire output wiuth one LMG and a 34/42 needs 3 crew, you end up with 6 of 8 operating it, and no rifle fire.
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sultanbev

Yes, to factor that in I don't really count rifles, but LMGs per platoon. So a DAK Schutzen Platoon of 33 men with 6x MG34, 6-9x MP40 is about 2.5 times the firepower of a British platoon with 3 Brens, 3 Thompsons and 37 men. So 5/30 is probably a bit of an understatement, but have been trying to keep within the bounds of playability.

It's one of them where doubling the firepower in reality doesn't double the effect down range, a counter-intuitive thought but one proven by battle statistics.

I can only go off relative values as there appears to be no formula. As far as I can make out, a standard infantry platoon of regulars with 3 LMG and at best 3 SMG is A/P= 3/30 with CA4. I use this as a benchmark around which variables like better/worse training and less/more LMGs then push it up or down. I think each step change is worth 10 points but I'm not sure about that. Thus you could end up with a militia platoon that happened to have 5-6 LMG, but only a A/P rating of 3/30, or an elite platoon with only 3 BAR but 5/30, or something like that.

It does vary with date and unit, the 5/30 for the DAK platoon I put is for 115th Schutzen Regiment of 15th Panzer Division in Operation Crusader.
The 1942 DAK infantry platoons tend to have 4 MG34 and only about 16-20 infantry, but includes other men with a 81mm mortar and anti-tank gun. For units like that you then have to look at the whole company and average it out, the 3 platoons perhaps reducing to two BKC stands of infantry with A/P = 4/30, one of mortars, and one anti-tank gun. And so on.

Of course, in a none-competition game or if not using points, anyone is free to put what they think reflects the reality of the unit they are depicting if they feel confident that any changes they make are realistic and that won't affect the play balance too much.

Mark B


michaelk

Mark

Thanks for sharing that approach. It is very interesting. Is there a reason for changing the saves of the Panzer IIIs from a 5 to 6 to just a 6. Also are there any more North Afrika army lists coming out?

Thanks again


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sultanbev

Hi, had to check in case it was a typo. in List BKCG2.
The save on a 6 is for the early Panzer IIIs with only 3cm frontal armour, as written in the rule book, (the Panzer IIIJ didn't reach North Africa in quantity until December 28th 1941). I have just used the stats as in the rule book, which for the Panzer IIIH is save =6. Although the Panzer IIIH had the extra hull front armour but still 3cm thin turret armour, so it could be argued they have a save on a 5-6 as the hull front with 6cm was proof against 2pdr AP over 300m, and fairly safe below that range. On the other hand it can be argued that the tank was still vulnerable to 2pdr AP at 1200m if hit in the turret, so is a save on only a 6 just as valid?
One of the disadvantages of a single D6 system, the rules writers had to draw the line somewhere, but feel free to change it to a 5-6 at +10pts per tank if you think the current save makes them too weak.

There will be more North African lists coming out, but it will most likely be in 2022 I'm afraid, the requests list got very long!

Mark B

michaelk

Again thanks for the response. 2022 it is.


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