Libertad! Mixed Contingents

[Glorfindel]

I've bought the Libertad! rules and am now looking to build armies for both sides (I can certainly get
our club to play but will most likely have to provide the figures for this to happen, which I'm happy to
do).

Anyway, I like the idea of building a mixed contingent, mainly drawn from one list but supplemented
by others.   This would seem to best represent the fighting on the ground (and is reflected in all the
scenarios provided).   I'd therefore like to make sure I understand this correctly.

Page 12 of the rules includes a statement that this is allowed as long as there is only one overall CO
and that all troops remain within fixed formations.   Fine.   However, does this mean that, for the
Nationalist player, they can build a list which includes several Infantry Companies drawn from the
Army of Africa list and supplement these with tanks from the Peninsular list (up to 35 !) and Stukas
from the Condor Legion list.   

Now, I know that there is a difference between what is allowed (if my understanding is correct) and
what I want to do to reflect the history.   I certainly don't want massed tank formations supported
by Stukas and Infantry (as this doesn't match my limited knowledge of the period).

I did, however, want to make sure my understanding of the basic concept of mixed contingents is
right.

Grateful for any thoughts.    Phil

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Phil the Pendraken stater armies both have a good mix of types, which should give what you want.

[Big Insect]

I've bought the Libertad! rules and am now looking to build armies for both sides (I can certainly get
our club to play but will most likely have to provide the figures for this to happen, which I'm happy to
do).

Anyway, I like the idea of building a mixed contingent, mainly drawn from one list but supplemented
by others.   This would seem to best represent the fighting on the ground (and is reflected in all the
scenarios provided).   I'd therefore like to make sure I understand this correctly.

Page 12 of the rules includes a statement that this is allowed as long as there is only one overall CO
and that all troops remain within fixed formations.   Fine.   However, does this mean that, for the
Nationalist player, they can build a list which includes several Infantry Companies drawn from the
Army of Africa list and supplement these with tanks from the Peninsular list (up to 35 !) and Stukas
from the Condor Legion list.   

Now, I know that there is a difference between what is allowed (if my understanding is correct) and
what I want to do to reflect the history.   I certainly don't want massed tank formations supported
by Stukas and Infantry (as this doesn't match my limited knowledge of the period).

I did, however, want to make sure my understanding of the basic concept of mixed contingents is
right.

Grateful for any thoughts.    Phil

As you state Phil - there is 'history' and there are wargaming lists.
But in theory you could do as you state. I did have the idea that you had to take a minimum of X number of basic infantry bases per allied contingent, or that no allied contingent could cost more than 25% of the overall points of a mixed- force, but the reality of the conflict was that you did see contingents of tanks or cavalry or air support (or infantry) directed to support other friendly factions.  They were always under their own command however.

NB: The challenge you'll have with the Condor Legion (for example) will be that if you buy the Stukas and the FAC to command them (as without the FAC they are useless!) I really wouldn't want to be that FAC on the table top (bullet magnet or what!). Also, the Stuka's couldn't be used as Assets, as they are not part of the main force, and not technically within the 'Fixed Formation' of the overall CO. If that makes sense.

Buying all the Peninsular Tanks and Condor Legion Stuka's and the Legions best infantry would of course be hugely expensive, so the opposing Republican army would be massive - and 'quantity has a quality all of its own' (misquoted) 

I'd be interested to hear how you got on?
Cheers
Mark

[Glorfindel]

Thanks guys - lots to think about.

I'm glad I understand the contingents rule - it will actually be really helpful in adding some
interesting support options to the list I want to build (Army of Africa).   Also means that I
can paint up some of the FT-17 tanks which is a bonus and will make a change from masses
of infantry.

The plan, though, is to keep the support fairly limited.

I've found that the way the army lists work (picking various platoon types) has encouraged
me to carry out some research into historical organisation, even if it is accepted that the
reality was very different on the ground.   

This web page (and the whole site) has been very useful in this respect:

https://balagan.info/orders-of-battle-for-the-spanish-civil-war


I did have one supplementary question about the Army of Africa list.   Although the page
includes the 'Molotov Cocktails' special rule (and confirms that the AoA helped to invent this
as a method of attacking enemy armour), the list itself doesn't seem to allow AoA troops to
take this ability.   I assume this is just a typo - I will certainly be adding it as an Infantry
upgrade.

Thanks again.   I'm sure more questions will emerge !


Phil

[John Cook]

I haven't seen BKC IV but I have used an earlier iteration published in 2009.  I always ignored the lists entirely and based my armies on historical orders of battle rather than artificial constraints.  I have never understood the need for lists or points based armies.

I'm not sure what the BKC IV is trying to achieve but could it be something to do with the structure of National Army infantry regiments?

My SCW collection is based on 1937 when both sides were more or less evenly balanced. 

During this time a National Army infantry regiment would, in general terms, comprise a three, sometimes four, different battalion sized elements.  For example, a regiment might comprise a Legion Bandera, a Morrocan Tabor and a Falange Bandera, or a Peninsular Army regiment or Tercio of Requetes.  A typical brigade would have, usually, two such regiments, up to four batteries of artillery, a section of Pak 36 anti-tank guns and a company of Pz I tanks later supplemented by captured T-26, and finally, a company of Zapadores.

By January 1937 the Republic had established the Popular Army.  The Popular Army's equivalent of the infantry regiment was the Mixed Brigade which incorporated the loyal Peninsular Army units and the various militias.  It comprised typically four battalion sized units, but did not have the integral artillery and other arms found in the National Army.  These were grouped separately as Corp/Army assets.

Unless you are gaming the early fighting around Madrid in 1936 I'd forget about FT-17 tanks.  The Nationalist deployed just six, the Republicans rather more with deliveries from Poland to augment the nine they stated with.  They had all but disappeared by the winter of 1936/37, entirely in the National Army.  Guadalajara was fought with T-26 and CV35, Jarama, Bruntete and the other battles of 1937 with T-26, BT-7 and Pz I.  The SCW was essentially an infantry war, tanks tended to be used in a supporting role and did not really reflect what was to come in 1940.

I would also forget about Stukas.  Hardly any Ju87 took part and only right at the end of the war.  As I remember they comprised an experimental flight of three aircraft and that's about it.  The Condor Legion did deploy some Henschel Hs 123 biplane dive-bombers though, which were also called Stukas sometimes as it is an abbreviation of the German word for a dive-bomber.

[Big Insect]

Interesting 'spot' on the Molatov cocktail and AoA issue Phil
I will check that out but that was (obviously) not the intention 
Cheers
Mark