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Author Topic: Four Questions  (Read 909 times)
Desert Fox
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Posts: 7



« on: 23 November 2020, 07:04:02 PM »

   Gentlemen,

      We just finished playing our second game of BKC and we are hoping that the forum can provide us with some clarifications or answers to questions and concerns that we have.

1. Has anyone created rules for tanks in the “hull down” position?

2. Do all towed guns have to Deploy, or only those that have Deploy as a characteristic?
If small guns do not have to Deploy, is there any difference in behavior between a towed version of that gun and a portee version?

3. When being bombarded by HE, do armored vehicles roll for Saves?

4. Can you choose to not issue a command to part of your force because they are very far away and would probably cause the roll for the whole force to fail?

   - Chris

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fred.
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« Reply #1 on: 23 November 2020, 09:18:05 PM »

Welcome - I’ll preface this by saying these are from memory and will likely be based far more on BKC2, than BKC4

1) I think we say they are in cover. And need to make half a move to get in to position

2) feels very much a BKC4 thing

3) Yes

4) Yes, definitely, you can split your force up when ordering. What I can’t recall for BKC (vs Warmaster) is if you can go back to the ‘left behind’ bit.
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Jerboa
Cadet

Posts: 38



« Reply #2 on: 24 November 2020, 05:21:20 PM »

Hi,
I was the Fox's opponent. Our objective was to play test artillery support and recce rules. I have a couple of follow up questions.

5. Consider 'artillery concentration' of an off-table 8-gun 25-pdr asset on a unit of panzers in the open. This is what we did:
  a. used a 20 cm diameter round template. rolled for deviation and direction. units with half stand under the template are targeted. rules clear here.
  b. rolled 6 dice per targeted AFV (AP stat). 4,5,6 are hits in the open.
  c. rolled for saves for each hit
  d. rolled for suppression (4,5,6 in the open).
  e. panzers marked suppressed. no damage since artillery only inflicts suppression on AFVs. We didn't see this explicitly in artillery support rules. This is the question.

Later, in the infantry support weapons section, I found this under infantry guns (IG): "All indirect fire uses the AP firing stat for the unit. guns below 100 mm in calibre can only inflict suppression on AFVs." (p. 45)
Does this apply to off-table artillery support? If so, 25-pdrs are about 88mm and can only suppress AFVs. And, German leFH 105mm guns (same point cost = 45 and dice=3 per 4 tubes) can cause damage?

6. The 'artillery concentration' seemed very powerful. The optional artillery rule (see link below) that reduces the diameter of the template for less than three batteries seems to restore balance. How many players are using it? Please provide opinions.

Artillery & Off-Table - http://bit.ly/BKCOptArt
(Includes Defensive Smoke, Final Defensive Fire, Reduced Artillery Fire-Zones and Rolling Barrage)

Cheers,
Jerboa
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Jerboa
Cadet

Posts: 38



« Reply #3 on: 24 November 2020, 05:23:46 PM »

And, if artillery with calibre under 100 mm can only suppress AFVs, why not mark the AP stat with an asterisk like mortars.

Jerboa
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henjed
Cadet

Posts: 28


« Reply #4 on: 25 November 2020, 09:53:35 PM »

Hull down interests me, playing desert war 1940-41. I have BKC II and BKC IV but don’t recall it in either (nor do I remember smoke from British 2” infantry mortars).

Deploy has always puzzled me. With towed guns we use one turn to unlimber and then one to deploy, but only one to limber up again.  With portee guns we say it takes only one turn after moving for them to be ready.

On HE and tanks, is it not a six to hit an AFV, but if successful they are suppressed on a four, five or six. (Have tried this in the rules but, as ever, can’t.) And, yes, they have saves.

A commander can give an order to only part of his force and then another order to another part only if he has not failed a roll with that first part. Once he fails he can give no more orders to anyone. He can’t order all his force successfully, then order part successfully and then go back to ordering all of it again.

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Big Insect
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« Reply #5 on: 26 November 2020, 10:05:50 AM »

Ok folks

Some thoughts
1) Fred is correct in his observations on points 1-2-4 above.

On point 3 about Towed Guns - all larger calibre guns have to make a Deploy move - some smaller IG guns and especially smaller AT guns are exempt from this rule (as specifically stated in the rules). But the process as described by henjed is correct.
On the subject of portees - generally the rules do not require you to use a deploy move, but you must be stationary to fire. Using a deploy move to prepare the gun is a sensible option/alternative (if you wish to play it that way).

Hull-down units can be considered to be in an appropriate field defense - such an an armour scrape - and are treated accordingly depending upon the angle of enemy fire.
The difficulty with Hull-down is that a unit on the table-top is actually a number of vehicles - but I'd suggest that you can use the field defense rules very effectively to represent this.

On the Artillery question.
You need to be clear that there is a significant distinction between on-table artillery and off-table artillery.
In your scenario with the 8 gun 25lber section - all these guns will inflict both hits and saves - in-fact most off-table artillery (including large mortars) are of a significant calibre to inflict damage on Armoured targets. Hitting armour in the rules with artillery is hard as the armour saves usually mean you get few hits but armour can be knocked-out by off-table artillery.
Any exceptions to the 100mm+ rule should be marked in the on-table lists, but again the lists usually have the calibre of the guns in them and the rule is straight forward.
This is simply a rules mechanism but also reflects the volume of available ammunition to off-table artillery parks (as an example) etc.

On-table artillery is different, in that the calibre of the gun effects its impact & its fire mode - so an under 100mm gun (see comment below) or mortar will only inflict suppression on an armoured target in indirect fire (as this is usually HE ammo) - so that is firing on a target where the guns have line-of-fire (LoS) but not line of sight (LoS).
NB: The guns/mortars are not using templated fire but will hit just one single enemy unit.
This differs with direct fire as that is deemed to be over open sights and so the applicable AT (or AP) factors apply.

On the subject of gun calibre - this is always very contentious and you can get very (very) granular about whether a German 105mm has the same effect as an Italian 90mm or a British 25lber (equivalent to 87.6 mm) etc. But please let us not open a protracted debate on this - these are just examples!!!
Then you have the effect of differing ammunition - but for off-table guns we have established that this doesn't apply. So we have gone for the circa.100mm specific calibre as a broad base cut off line to avoid unnecessary complexity on table. NB: your 25lb guns over open-sights on-table in LoF mode are a formidable adversary.
 
On the Command query - once a Command unit fails a command roll then they cannot order any more units in that game-turn.
Another Commander may be eligible to order units within the failed Commanders formation - that have not previously been ordered - but that will depend upon whether you are playing the optional Fixed Formations rules or not.

So I hope that this answers your queries chaps?
Many thanks
Mark
« Last Edit: 26 November 2020, 04:12:56 PM by Big Insect » Logged
Jerboa
Cadet

Posts: 38



« Reply #6 on: 27 November 2020, 04:09:12 PM »

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response. But, now I’m really confused about guns.

Henjed said, “ Deploy has always puzzled me. With towed guns we use one turn to unlimber and then one to deploy, but only one to limber up again.  With portee guns we say it takes only one turn after moving for them to be ready. ”

My understanding is that towed guns require a deploy action (unlimber) between a movement action and a firing action. And vice versa.  Henjed’s statement implies two deploy actions between movement and firing, and one deploy action between firing and movement.

And where, precisely are the exceptions for small or large guns?

Do portees require a deploy action?

Jerboa

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Big Insect
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« Reply #7 on: 27 November 2020, 08:09:28 PM »

With regards to Deployment

1). It is important to remember that a unit can use an Initiative action to deploy (including limbering or unlimbering) - and this is in effect a 'free' non Commanded action - as long as it is within Initiative distance of the enemy

2). The section on Infantry Support Weapons covers off the need to carry out a Deploy move for Infantry Guns, man-handled Mortars and man-handled Anti-tank Guns between moving and firing (NB: it is Anti-tank Rifles that are exempt from this, not small AT or Infantry guns - my error)

3). In the Opportunity Fire section it also states that "Troops carrying out a Deploy action are not eligible targets for opportunity fire."

I hope that clarifies things?

Mark
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Jerboa
Cadet

Posts: 38



« Reply #8 on: 28 November 2020, 03:37:11 AM »

Thanks Mark. That clarifies a few thangs.

But what about portees? Do they require a deploy action between movement and fire actions?

Jerboa
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Desert Fox
Cadet

Posts: 7



« Reply #9 on: 28 November 2020, 07:11:12 AM »

     Right now, this is what I think all of the posts combined say:

   1. We treated hull down as light cover (4's do not hit).  And only for the front of the tank.
   2. All towed crew-served artillery and AT guns must spend a command to Deploy once between moving and firing and firing and moving.
   3. AFVs under HE fire roll Saves.  Off-table artillery can apply hits to an AFV, indirect on-table artillery fire only suppresses AFVs, unless over 100mm.
   4. A command can be issued to only a portion of a force, leaving out some of the force's stands.

     Does anyone use the reduced artillery template?

     - Chris
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Big Insect
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« Reply #10 on: 28 November 2020, 05:05:26 PM »

Thanks Mark. That clarifies a few thangs.

But what about portees? Do they require a deploy action between movement and fire actions?

Jerboa

Portees need a deploy action between move and fire, and fire and move.
Some players do the deploy action only between move and fire but not between fire and move. It allows them to scoot! But you'd need to agree that with your opponant.
Cheers
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