Template lists for new Modern ranges

[John Cook]

Have to say the Korean War stuff I have are excellent models.

I don't doubt it for a moment.  All Pendraken's miniatures are excellent (some are more excellent than others ).  There are just some periods that don't motivate me and the Korean War is one of them.  It would be a dull world if we all liked the same thing, would it not? 

Now, a Dhofar War range, Sultan's Armed Forces, Iranians, Jordanians, SAS on one side, Popular Front for the Liberation of Oman and Yemenis on the other, would be something else and motivate me to do something post 1940. 

That explains my interest in this thread.  I'm always on the look-out for Dhofar War proxies but no luck yet.

[Sunray]

The other advantage is that most of the stuff used can be transfered to Cold War armies. Also you already have a lot of it. From memory you need to add the M60A1, Walid, BMP, ZSU23/4 and 57, BTR60 and M50 and M51 Shermans (not to sure about M50 for 73) and modify your M3 1/2 Track.

Good call IanKeeping to the Yom Kippum script.Leon has already ordered L33 Roem, I have mentioned IDF versions of halftrack with kit rails, and an SS100 version. Makmat 160mm mortar also key weapon.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

The SS10 version is very rare, 6-10 built. They may have recieved TOW in the US supply flights though they dont seem to have used it. The Israli 1/2 tracks are the M5/9 varient mostly, they bought ours. Changes were to add an MG in the drivers compartment, remove the pulpit, and add a pintle mount in the rear compartment, with a 50 cal.

[Sunray]

The SS10 version is very rare, 6-10 built. They may have recieved TOW in the US supply flights though they dont seem to have used it. The Israli 1/2 tracks are the M5/9 varient mostly, they bought ours. Changes were to add an MG in the drivers compartment, remove the pulpit, and add a pintle mount in the rear compartment, with a 50 cal.

Cheers Ian,  this is very useful

[sultanbev]

The total ATGW assets for the IDF in 1973 were:
755th Anti-tank Battalion (Bar Lev line) (small arms being AK47 until replaced by M16 in 1974)
      3 Companies@ 3 platoons@ 3x Jeep/SS-11, 1 ammo Jeep
      1 Company: CHQ: 2x Gaz-69
         3 platoons@ 4x 2P26 AT-1 Snapper
----------
2 independent Anti-tank Companies@
CHQ: 2x Gaz-69 Jeeps
3 platoons@ 4x 2P26 AT-1 Snapper

The 2P26 was the Gaz-69 Jeep with the 4 missiles pointing out the back, a much needed and overlooked model in any scale.

Some TOW ATGW mounted on Jeeps were deployed from 14th October 1973 in the 247th Airborne Brigade’s Anti-tank Company, 162nd Division. The company has 3 platoons each of 4x Jeep/106mm, it is not clear how many of these were replaced by Jeep/TOW, I suspect at least 1 platoon's worth.

As an aside the IDF received 6000x M72 LAW on 11th October 1973, from the US airlift.
As another aside they only had 50x 84mm Carl Gustav in 1973, in service with the navy.
The 87th divisional recce battalion had a company (12?) Jeep+TOW in November 1973
-------------
In the 1967 war the total IDF ATGW assets were:
755th Battalion (crew small arms being Mauser K98 rifles and MG34 until 1969)
1st battery: 1 OR 3 platoons@ 4x SS-11 on halftracks, 1 ammo halftrack in 38th Division
2nd Battery: 1 OR 3 platoons@ 4x SS-11 on halftracks, 1 ammo halftrack on Jordanian front
3rd Battery: 1 OR 3 platoons@ 4x SS-11 on halftracks, 1 ammo halftrack in "WPCS" on Golan   (translation from Jewish to Russian to English isn't clear....)
1 battery: 6x SS-11 on Jeeps (or more) in 35th Para Brigade
1 battery: 3? 12? x Cobra 1600 on Jeeps in with 80th Para Brigade

The SS-10 was received in 1957 and replaced by SS-11 by 1962. The halftrack+ SS-11 was phased out in 1969. The Cobra 1600 was phased out after the 1967 war.
The 2P26 AT-1 Snapper was issued to 755th Battalion in 1968.

After the 1973 war BRDM-2/Sagger were issued, and M151 Jeeps modified to carry Saggers.

[hammurabi70]

In 6mm  I used H&R Cold War West Germans for my Swedish infantry, so would probably do the same in 10mm for all the differences there are, unless someone actually went to the trouble of making them.

Guess I could just buy some 6mm S-tanks then.  I was thinking of matching them off against T54/T55 but I guess that they would be matched off against T62s in the 1970s.

[sultanbev]

Looking at the divisions of the Leningrad MD, those most likely opposite the Swedes, all but one, the 45th MRD, had T-55s and MTLB through to 1985 at least. So no BMPs and no T-62s. The 45th MRD had T-72s and BMPs in 1985, so may have been the only one in that theatre to transition to new tanks and MICV in the 1970s.

http://www.ww2.dk/new/army/Army.htm
http://www.ww2.dk/new/army/msd/45gvmsd.htm

[Sunray]

The total ATGW assets for the IDF in 1973 were:
755th Anti-tank Battalion (Bar Lev line) (small arms being AK47 until replaced by M16 in 1974)
      3 Companies@ 3 platoons@ 3x Jeep/SS-11, 1 ammo Jeep
      1 Company: CHQ: 2x Gaz-69
         3 platoons@ 4x 2P26 AT-1 Snapper
----------
2 independent Anti-tank Companies@
CHQ: 2x Gaz-69 Jeeps
3 platoons@ 4x 2P26 AT-1 Snapper

The 2P26 was the Gaz-69 Jeep with the 4 missiles pointing out the back, a much needed and overlooked model in any scale.

Some TOW ATGW mounted on Jeeps were deployed from 14th October 1973 in the 247th Airborne Brigade's Anti-tank Company, 162nd Division. The company has 3 platoons each of 4x Jeep/106mm, it is not clear how many of these were replaced by Jeep/TOW, I suspect at least 1 platoon's worth.

As an aside the IDF received 6000x M72 LAW on 11th October 1973, from the US airlift.
As another aside they only had 50x 84mm Carl Gustav in 1973, in service with the navy.
The 87th divisional recce battalion had a company (12?) Jeep+TOW in November 1973
-------------
In the 1967 war the total IDF ATGW assets were:
755th Battalion (crew small arms being Mauser K98 rifles and MG34 until 1969)
1st battery: 1 OR 3 platoons@ 4x SS-11 on halftracks, 1 ammo halftrack in 38th Division
2nd Battery: 1 OR 3 platoons@ 4x SS-11 on halftracks, 1 ammo halftrack on Jordanian front
3rd Battery: 1 OR 3 platoons@ 4x SS-11 on halftracks, 1 ammo halftrack in "WPCS" on Golan   (translation from Jewish to Russian to English isn't clear....)
1 battery: 6x SS-11 on Jeeps (or more) in 35th Para Brigade
1 battery: 3? 12? x Cobra 1600 on Jeeps in with 80th Para Brigade

The SS-10 was received in 1957 and replaced by SS-11 by 1962. The halftrack+ SS-11 was phased out in 1969. The Cobra 1600 was phased out after the 1967 war.
The 2P26 AT-1 Snapper was issued to 755th Battalion in 1968.

After the 1973 war BRDM-2/Sagger were issued, and M151 Jeeps modified to carry Saggers.

Mark, this is obviously Primary Source research.

1.  Can you cite your sources?
2.  Advise Leon what additional models he should consider for 1973 Yom Kippur? Special consideration for any that have Cold War application.

Phil and I will stick to researching figures and uniform.

[Raider4]

Guess I could just buy some 6mm S-tanks then.  I was thinking of matching them off against T54/T55 but I guess that they would be matched off against T62s in the 1970s.

For some reason I have in my head that the Swedes would likely have been facing the Poles, so T-55s for me in my hypothetical 'Cold War gone hot' game.

[hammurabi70]

For some reason I have in my head that the Swedes would likely have been facing the Poles, so T-55s for me in my hypothetical 'Cold War gone hot' game.

As the Baltic Sea lies between them and with the geo-political structures involved, this seems a rather strange fantasy.  Any idea of a likely scenario that would cause this to arise?

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

My understanding is that Sweden was targeted by Leningrad MD, coming in through Finland. Poles were targeted on Denmark using their airbourne forces. Soviet kit would be T55, T72 and possibly T 62. Some infantry would have been in MTLB rather than BTR? or possibly BMP.

[Raider4]

As the Baltic Sea lies between them and with the geo-political structures involved, this seems a rather strange fantasy.  Any idea of a likely scenario that would cause this to arise?

Dunno, really. Something about the Soviets head west, and the Poles invade Sweden in a combined naval/airborne operation to protect the Russians northern flank and tie-up the USMC. Can't remember where I picked this up - book? movie? idle speculation on an internet forum? -, but it's definitely there.

[sultanbev]

Mark, this is obviously Primary Source research.

1.  Can you cite your sources?
2.  Advise Leon what additional models he should consider for 1973 Yom Kippur? Special consideration for any that have Cold War application.

Phil and I will stick to researching figures and uniform.

The source is the old WarOnline website, a Russian language one that featured articles on the IDF, including veterans reports (many Israelies came from Russia), or used hebrew sources and translated them. It doesn't appear to exist anymore. I did make handwritten notes of the main article, and a cut and paste of the article on ATGW,which is too big to attach here.

[hammurabi70]

My understanding is that Sweden was targeted by Leningrad MD, coming in through Finland. Poles were targeted on Denmark using their airbourne forces. Soviet kit would be T55, T72 and possibly T 62. Some infantry would have been in MTLB rather than BTR? or possibly BMP.

Seems a bit unlikely as the agreement was that the Finns would resist anyone entering their territories, so they would be adding Finland to their list of enemies.  Still, a useful angle for scenarios.

Dunno, really. Something about the Soviets head west, and the Poles invade Sweden in a combined naval/airborne operation to protect the Russians northern flank and tie-up the USMC. Can't remember where I picked this up - book? movie? idle speculation on an internet forum? -, but it's definitely there.

I would have to lean towards the Danish angle but from a simple start the possibilities seem to be expanding rapidly!  Starting with two armies there are already five being mentioned; bit more than the small project I was envisaging.

[holdfast]

My understanding is that Sweden was targeted by Leningrad MD, coming in through Finland. Poles were targeted on Denmark using their airbourne forces.

There was also the Polish Sea Landing Division which we expected to land in Koge Bay. In one of the  three UKMF Options we sent the 1st Infantry Brigade to the area west of Copenhagen and aimed to lay lotsa mines there. One of the challenges for the Milan ATGW which was expected to be used vs the landing craft was the network of power lines which all ran the wrong way.