Template lists for new Modern ranges

Started by Leon, 10 November 2020, 01:05:37 AM

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Orcs

For some on who is no expert in modern warfare, arn't EGP1 and EGP2 armed the same?

Egyptians (Waistcoat type)
EGP1   Advancing with AK47 (2 poses)
EGP2   Advancing with Kalashnikov
The cynics are right nine times out of ten. -Mencken, H. L.

Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well. - Robert Louis Stevenson

Sunray

Quote from: sultanbev on 25 January 2021, 10:52:06 AM
For Egypt 1973, your main AA systems are:
Sa-7 teams allocated at brigade and army level
ZSU-23-4
57mm S60
twin 23mm ZU-23-2
85mm KS12
100mm KS19

For other armies, the 14.5mm ZPU-1/2/4 AAHMG are probably more common than 12.7mm AAHMG, along with 37mm M39 AA.

Having said that, we need the 37mm M39 AA, 85mm AA and 12.7mm AAHMG for WW2 Russians, so making one would easily be converitble to the other, if not identical.

Sorry, Phil and I have no interest in a plethora of heavy kit/vehicles. Not in our paygrade/ figures brief. What we do know is that gamers do not like units off the table, so little demand for the SA2/3/6 that were the backbone of Arab AAA umbrella.  ZSU-23 is vunerable to small arms fire, nevermind the Centurions it will be sharing a table with.
An estimated 4,000+ SA7 rockets were fired which suggests wide deployment at battalion level following the Soviet model.

Question remains, if Pendraken produce SA7team and Dshkm in  simpleAA mount, will the aveage gamer fighting a glorified skirmish, buy them?

Also the 4,000 odd fired had a very low kill ratio. Which suggests poor training/ineffective against fast jets. Is this reflected in rules?

Thanks again






Orcs

In all seriousness could we include

Youths throwing stones/ petrol bombs
PLO type figures in headscarves. with assorted weapons.

I am thinking a single pack with say.  

Firing AK47  
Moving AK47  
Rifle
Rifle with spare RPG rounds x2
RPG

Perhaps they could be made as a half way to making the main masters. Ie before they are covered in  Army webbing. they could them be painted up as civies if needed  
The cynics are right nine times out of ten. -Mencken, H. L.

Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well. - Robert Louis Stevenson

Sunray

Quote from: Orcs on 25 January 2021, 12:14:55 PM
For some on who is no expert in modern warfare, arn't EGP1 and EGP2 armed the same?

Egyptians (Waistcoat type)
EGP1   Advancing with AK47 (2 poses)
EGP2   Advancing with Kalashnikov


Quite right.

From memory i think the differnce was that EGP1 would be in the assault jerkin.  I will check with Leon.

sultanbev

"Also the 4,000 odd fired had a very low kill ratio. Which suggests poor training/ineffective against fast jets. Is this reflected in rules?"
In my rules yes. With a range of about 4km that is 200cm in CWC, so they would appear on table in many wargames.

"Question remains, if Pendraken produce SA7team and Dshkm in  simpleAA mount, will the aveage gamer fighting a glorified skirmish, buy them?"

Good point, I play battalions at 1:1 so I'd buy 6x Sa-7 teams as that is what a brigade has.

I'd buy at least 9 x 12.7mm AAHMG for my WW2 Russians, and probably more for conversions - if the gunner is wearing a helmet I'd also use them for any arab armies I build.
The Soviet 85mm AA (KS12 is a post-war designation for the WW2 gun) is as important as a WW2 German 88, and used as an anti-gun just as often. So again, I'd buy 9 for my WW2 Soviets, and more if I did an arab army.

"Sorry, Phil and I have no interest in a plethora of heavy kit/vehicles. Not in our paygrade/ figures brief."
Ah right, I was only listing what was had, not necessarily asking that they be made as such. If your brief is solely to do Arab-Israeli infantry, then probably just the Sa-7 team would do out of all the AA assets listed. Just realised there is a NVA 12.7mm AAHMG already, so maybe I can convert that for my WW2 needs.

Sa-2s were used as emergency anti-tank rockets once the IDF had crossed the canal, and the old Airfix nostalgia might kick in, but yes, we don't really need Sa-2 and Sa-3 models. The ZSU-23-4 and Sa-6 I can probably get elsewhere in 3D print or from Red3.

Mark


Sunray

Thanks Mark. That's the sort of tablewise feedback we need, Phil's figures are finer than the early Vietnam range, so even with a little exaggeration, his 12.7 will NOT be the same size as a 1/150 Bofors.

I will refer Orcs' request upwards. :)

John Cook

Quote from: Orcs on 25 January 2021, 12:22:38 PM
In all seriousness could we include

Youths throwing stones/ petrol bombs
PLO type figures in headscarves. with assorted weapons.


Leon asked in the OP

"Below is the rough idea of our Arab-Israeli ranges, so have a look and see if there's anything you think we've missed.  Remember that this is a core range so we're looking for the essentials to begin with!"

I'd say that the PLO is an essential part of any core Arab-Israeli range.  Such figures would also be useful to represent any Arab insurgent types for any of the ME wars up to the present day.

Sunray

Quote from: sultanbev on 25 January 2021, 12:43:51 PM
"Also the 4,000 odd fired had a very low kill ratio. Which suggests poor training/ineffective against fast jets. Is this reflected in rules?"
In my rules yes. With a range of about 4km that is 200cm in CWC, so they would appear on table in many wargames.

"Question remains, if Pendraken produce SA7team and Dshkm in  simpleAA mount, will the aveage gamer fighting a glorified skirmish, buy them?"

Good point, I play battalions at 1:1 so I'd buy 6x Sa-7 teams as that is what a brigade has.


Sa-2s were used as emergency anti-tank rockets once the IDF had crossed the canal, and the old Airfix nostalgia might kick in, but yes, we don't really need Sa-2 and Sa-3 models. The ZSU-23-4 and Sa-6 I can probably get elsewhere in 3D print or from Red3.

Mark

Thanks Mark

In excange for tons of kit, the US got access to a IDF intel combat reports and debriefs. This was passec to NATO. Things like:
1. The role of debussed infantry was still valid, and the MICV role such as the Soviet BMP needed to be revised. The fact that Arab infantry did not debus needs to be in the rules.
2. Counter battery fire was taken by IDF to a whole new level.
3. The ZSU-23-4. Yes, I can predict Pendraken will make one. The Arabs depoyed them forward as AAA. However, in the battles around Suez, they were encountered by IDF Recon units. Jeeps with 7.62mm and .50 HMG. It was found their exposed optics werevery  vunerable to small arms fire.  Is this in the rules?
4. SA-2 against tanks. No even an open sight. But agree with your Airfix theory. Wargaming is 60% building and painting. All IA have done during pandemic is paint.

Thanks again

James


Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Think you are looking at too lower level for CWC here James.
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Sunray

Quote from: John Cook on 26 January 2021, 10:19:13 AM
Leon asked in the OP

"Below is the rough idea of our Arab-Israeli ranges, so have a look and see if there's anything you think we've missed.  Remember that this is a core range so we're looking for the essentials to begin with!"

I'd say that the PLO is an essential part of any core Arab-Israeli range.  Such figures would also be useful to represent any Arab insurgent types for any of the ME wars up to the present day.

Two key points to note:

1. This is not a generic Arab-Israeli range- it is tightly focused on 1973  October Yom Kippur War.
2. Be aware of the dichotomy between the PLO and the PLA. The former is the fadayeen, the latter are regular. There is lively debate on their respective 1973 role. Shimoni (1990, pp340-343) argues that PLO  did little other than fire a few rockets and that PLA although reasonably trained/equipted was never entrusted with anything more than  support duties . Arab sources such as Abu Lyad/Rouleau (1978,p120-126) argues that PLO launched 100 +attacks and PLA was part of commando teams in the Golan and rear Sinai.

Syrian figures in beret/field cap will proxy well for PLA. After 1973 they were de facto part of Syrian army.



























9 during the October war, Syrian figures with the odd beret/cap will proxy well.

Sunray

Quote from: ianrs54 on 26 January 2021, 11:12:46 AM
Think you are looking at too lower level for CWC here James.

Care to expand Ian?  My query to Mark was if CWC rules had mechanisn for the ZSU-23-4 to have its optics disabled by small arms fire. As happened in 1973 war,

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

It would be the suppression rule. From memory the 50 cal has no AT value in BKC so I suspect that it won't in CWC II. It's probably going to be on a 4 to hit and 6 to supress like most small arms. If we were doing a skirmish level game it would be a special effect, probably vehicle specific. I suspect that in reality the vehicle would actually be out of action as unable to repair the damage but thyats a bit much detail for CWC. Mark could probably enlighten us more on this.
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Orcs

Quote from: ianrs54 on 26 January 2021, 12:46:54 PM
It would be the suppression rule. From memory the 50 cal has no AT value in BKC so I suspect that it won't in CWC II. It's probably going to be on a 4 to hit and 6 to supress like most small arms. If we were doing a skirmish level game it would be a special effect, probably vehicle specific. I suspect that in reality the vehicle would actually be out of action as unable to repair the damage but thyats a bit much detail for CWC. Mark could probably enlighten us more on this.

Perhaps bring back the HMG's may suppress armored vehicles rule from BKC1 for this.

I think this is an area that we do not pay enough attention to.  I have just read Anthony Beevor's book 'D-Day'. In it it is mentioned the effect of Mortar fire on Tanks from both a morale perspective and forcing  them to close down and hugely reduce their visibility. Surely this is true for even modern tanks  even in modern tanks.?

Israeli Tank commanders suffered a high percentage of casualties, mainly to head wounds from having their head out of the hatch.  A wounded or killed  commander is going to have a negative effect on both the crew and vehicle effectiveness.  Either from simply the lack of a crew member or from what is leaking out of him into the tank.
The cynics are right nine times out of ten. -Mencken, H. L.

Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well. - Robert Louis Stevenson

Sunray

Thanks Ian.  The ZSU 23-4 is unique in that its firepower is lethal to an infantry unit, however its Achilles' heel is its exposed firecontrol optics,  A decent burst from a 7.62 GPMG will render it blind. It is not an AFV. It is tracked AAA.  Not designed to be shot up.  This may need to be reflected in rules.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

But the Russians did find the 23/4 useful in street fighting in Checnia (sp) in the 90's.
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021