Communist Korean War Armour?

[mad lemmey]

How many were built between 1945 and 1948?

[sultanbev]

How many were built between 1945 and 1948?

Zero!. I have recently found a company of KV-2 were used at Kursk, but apart from an odd German one overrun in 1945, they didn't see service after that.
I suspect the "80x KV-2" refers to Is-2 tanks. As for SF-24, LF-18, NT-21 and T-38 medium tanks, well, your guess is as good as mine.

Mark

[ianrs54]

There is one in a picture of the Russian advamce into Manchuria. OK pictorial evidence is dodgy, but in thgis case the amount of German transport in the foreground would seem to point to it being accurate.

[Raider4]

There is one in a picture of the Russian advamce into Manchuria. OK pictorial evidence is dodgy, but in thgis case the amount of German transport in the foreground would seem to point to it being accurate.

Eh? If the Soviet tank is advancing into Manchuria, why would there be German equipment lying around?

[Ithoriel]

Which advance into Manchuria? Nomonhan in 1939 or the 1945 push?

Lot's of Soviet armour in Manchukuo in '39 and plenty of KV-2s in service.

On the other hand German transport would suggest it was taken after the German surrender.

[sultanbev]

The KV-2 entered production in 1940, so none served in the 1939 war against the Japanese.

I think Ian's post refers to lots of German transport captured in 1944-45, that was transferred to the far east when whole units moved across for the 1945 offensive against the Japanese. I think I've seen the photo he refers to, although it's not definitive proof.
Of more interest would be the uparmoured BT-7 that were used in the 1945 offensive, that had 35mm-ish plates added on frontally.

Adds nowt to our discussion on Chinese armour in Korea

Mark

[ianrs54]

The german kit was captured stuff being pressed into service, Opel Blitz and buses. It's definately 45, there are T34/85 in evidence.

[Sunray]

As I progress (slowly) with the proposed BKCIV Korean War supplement I am finding that for a relatively short and relatively recent conflict, there is a lot of unsubstantiated misinformation about the arms used by various of the combatants.

Leave aside the oddity of some other sets of wargames rules/list that have the US forces using Stuart light tanks (for example) - which they did not - although other sources also claim that the North Koreans and PVA did (or did they?) - the issue of the communist armour is also very blurred.

That the main communist tank was the Soviet supplied T34-85 - used by both North Korean and PLA/PVA forces - is not in doubt but I am discovering sources claiming that the North Koreans used both ISU-152s and also IS-2 M1944 (PVA) along with M4A2E8 76 mm with HVSS Sherman Emcha (ex-US lease-lend WW2 stock) as well.

That SU-76s and SU-100's were used is not in doubt as there is US photographic evidence of US Marines inspecting a destroyed North Korean SU-100 and records of captured SU-76s.
But I am in serious doubt about the IS--2 - as records indicate that the PLA only obtained the 60 that they had between 1950 & 51 but surely if they were deployed in Korea there would have been a much greater 'fuss' made about them from the UN side of things.
Likewise, with the ISU-152 these would have been prized assets if indeed they were ever deployed in Korean - but were they used in combat or just in their artillery role (if they were there at all)?

All thoughts & comments welcomed

Mark

Hi Mark

Can I make a tabletop suggestion?

The main rules confined to the kit we can confirm was used.  And a few columns dealing with "game optional/what might have been" kit - had it been deployed.   These also relevant to the dawn of the Cold War.   I mean contemporary kit like the Comet, IS2, and ISU-152.  It gives the rules a bit more stretch and at the same time keeps the purists happy.   

In reality - from combats reports - the Centurion was able to "swan" around the battlefield.

Best wishes

James

[Big Insect]

A sound plan Sunray 

I am also looking at what other specific rules/mechanisms we can incorporate.

- Napalm is one of them - but we have the basic mechanism for that from CWC anyway
- static smoke projectors is another - which I have adapted from my Great War Commander tinkering's
- specifics for amphibious coastal assaults - which might also be helpful for BCKIV and CWC as well
- scenarios in deep cold weather conditions might be another

But other thoughts are all welcomed

Mark

[ianrs54]

Beware inculding too much kit, Churchills lasted til the late 60's in the Irish army, Comets til the mid 80's ? in the Finnish and Burmese armies. OK lists for the Irish and Burmese armies are unlikley but the Finns should be.

[Sunray]

A few more lines in the AVF column ? Bring it on!  It will help sell the rules if a bit of 1950s Very Early Cold War is now playable.  It will also shift Pendraken  kit from this era.

[Steve J]

I like the idea of some 'might have' kit included in the lists.

[sultanbev]

I like the idea of some 'might have' kit included in the lists.

Me too, but that's probably best left for CWC2. Things like T-29, T-32, T-34, T-43, Is-7, FV215 gun carrier, etc are probably too powerful for the WW2 stats. If your BKC Tiger II is 6 hits at 3 to save, tanks with even better armour and bigger guns will end up at with A/T 8/100 and 6-8 hits at 2 to save, which like post-Cold War M1A2, T-80U, Challenger 2 in CWC1, distorts the game too much. In other words, both rules sets have finite limits due to the way the number of hits, saves, and attack dice interact.

The authors of CWC2 and BKC4 will have to consider the overlaps - there will be WW2 kit used in the Cold War era, but they will have different stats, in effect the stats all being relative within each rules set. So where do you do the cut-off? If all wars and potential cold wars up to 1953 are covered by BKC4, that still leaves a lot of WW2 kit in a 1956 CWC2 game for example.

Certainly the early Cold War is an interesting area to game, and 1956 Cold War is something I'm building 10mm armies for; as it allows WW2 gamers to venture into moderns whilst still being able to use a lot of their WW2 models, even German ones.

As for models, Pendraken should perhaps start looking at future 3D printing for the what-ifs and "they only built a few of", I'm picking up lots of alternative WW2 models through 3D printing companies, (although some can't do 1/160 models for 10mm gaming, the smallest they do is 1/100 for 15mm gaming)

Mark

[Big Insect]

The authors of CWC2 and BKC4 will have to consider the overlaps - there will be WW2 kit used in the Cold War era, but they will have different stats, in effect the stats all being relative within each rules set. So where do you do the cut-off? If all wars and potential cold wars up to 1953 are covered by BKC4, that still leaves a lot of WW2 kit in a 1956 CWC2 game for example.

Mark

Exactly why we are looking at Korean (& 1st/2nd Indo-China) as supplements Mark, as the mix of stats may end being unique to the supplement rather than being BKCIV or CWCII specific.
A lot of WW2 kit lingers on - some to this day in certain armies - even only if in Reserve. I like my 1989 Greek National Guard in their US M3 half-tracks (for example).

On the subjects of "what if's" or "1-offs" I am personally cautious - we can end up going down a rabbit hole to build stats for something that might end up distorting the game or generating a mass of work to accommodate. The ideal answer is to create either a PDF supplement with them in, or a unit calculation engine of course, that allows players to build their own view of these units. However, as we have already found, a points calculator is not exactly easy to build in BKC and also CWC - but it is being worked on.  FWC has a calculator but it's internal workings are a 'black box' and some of the outputs are very variable or inscrutable ... but it is a start.

Work has started on the Korean War supplement ... so I'll keep you posted as it develops 

Mark (F)

[ianrs54]

But the only new tank gun is the 20 pdr, all the rest is WWII kit. M41's wern't sent, the M46 is a hotted up M26. I there think there is no need for new stats, except for the F-86 Sabre. Rest of the air support is WWII for land based. Yes we need to add Skyradier, and either the Cougar or Panther (can never remeber which is swept) for USMC, but it seems the bulk of the USN strile aircraft were late model Corsairs. No need for major changes.