WW2 "Heavy" weapons crew.

Started by steve_holmes_11, 14 September 2020, 02:34:37 PM

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steve_holmes_11

Not sure whether this would generate demand.
The Context is the 2 Fat Lardies Chain of Command rules.

I've been scratching my head for ways to make this viable in 10mm - and figured a mix of basing the foot in singles and pairs maintains flexibility without the pfaff of lots of tiny baselets.
All the troops and vehicles are available, but there's a mismatch between team sizes in Pendraken packs and those required by the rules.

CoC genreally requires quite large crew: 2 for light mortars, PIATS, bazookas etc, 2 or 3 for LMGs and 5 for anything more substantial.
I contemplated subbing in some riflemen to make up the numbers, but those poses generally look quite active, and "shooty".

What I propose is:

A selection of generic "extra" weapons crews.
You can buy a pack of 10, and divvy them up around your LMGs, Mortars and ATGs as needed.

The art of this lies in the "Generic".
A guy handling a 75mm shell, or a Bren magazine has limited use.
Somebody waiting empty handed, or carrying a generic ammunition box s a lot more flexible.
Poses also need to be appropriate.
I'd guess kneeling or crouched, with rifles slung, and the occasional man in a "spotting" pose ought to fit nicely with most of the current weapon sets.

Would this sort of offering generate much demand?




Ithoriel

Tell Leon what you want and he'll sort it for a very modest increase in price over standard packs - in my experience.
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

For brens all you would need is a prone rifleman, and a small lt green box, which contained 10 mags, it was modded to take L4 mags. Offically a gun team has 3 members, no 1 with the bren, no2 with an enfield and no 3 the L Cpl wit h an enfield. The spare kit would be spread around the three men

I would agree that generic helmetless open handed HW crews would be useful as mortar and gun crews.
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steve_holmes_11

Quote from: ianrs54 on 14 September 2020, 04:02:22 PM
For brens all you would need is a prone rifleman, and a small lt green box, which contained 10 mags, it was modded to take L4 mags. Offically a gun team has 3 members, no 1 with the bren, no2 with an enfield and no 3 the L Cpl wit h an enfield. The spare kit would be spread around the three men

I would agree that generic helmetless open handed HW crews would be useful as mortar and gun crews.

Do they need to be helmetless?
I'd imagined them looking much like ordinary squaddies, but with hands free and a bit less active.

Raised here because I don't see any suitable figures among the various rifle offereings.

steve_holmes_11

I'm possibly missing a trick because the crew for most of the WW2 artillery aren't pictured.
It's likely that these would do the trick.


Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Helmetless casue the helmets are distinctive for each nation.
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Westmarcher

14 September 2020, 06:29:39 PM #6 Last Edit: 14 September 2020, 06:36:46 PM by Westmarcher
The AWI casualty pack's figures are bare-headed with various tricornes, hats, grenadier caps provided separately. So, do-able for WW2 also?

Edit: forget that idea - you can't get the figures to wear the headgear unless you slice off the top of their heads. D'oh!

(nevertheless, the pioneer pack and most of the artillery crew figures in the SYW range are bare-headed so perhaps a WW2 bare-headed pack is still do-able) (a multi-nation pack is also feasible with 'unused' nations' figures having the added use as POW's).
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.

fsn

I think there are sufficient figures in the various gun crews anyway. They perhaps just need extracting into a separate code? Or codes?
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Ithoriel

When I wanted additional gun crews for towed artillery and to crew vehicles I asked Leon for 20 German artillerymen to be added to the order. I'm sure if I'd asked for particular poses he'd have done that too. Plenty on the forum have ordered non-standard packs and had no problem.

I will risk irking FK by reiterating my frequent mantra - "This is a solution looking for a problem!" :)
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paulr

More pictures of the artillery and other support weapons clearing showing the crews would assist with this

Quote from: Ithoriel on 14 September 2020, 07:31:09 PM
... Plenty on the forum have ordered non-standard packs and had no problem...
I don't think I've placed an order that hasn't included non-standard packs :-[
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Leon

We're moving on to some of the WWII website photos soon which will help quite a lot!  We're also going to add separate crews as a catalogue code as well.
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John Cook

Generic will not do it, in my opinion.  Even in WW2 the variety of uniforms is sufficient that a single generic 'crew' figure is no good, and the weapon itself dictates the role and, therefore, the posture of the figures in a crew. 

For example, LMG and MMG generally have crews of between 2 and 6, some weapons are belt fed, others magazine fed.  Mortars had at least as many crew.  A British 3" Mortar platoon in 1940, for example, comprised two sections of 8 men and a 15cwt truck to carry the weapons and ammunition.  LMG will, generally, require a prone crew while MMG and mortars will require, on the whole, kneeling/sitting figures.  The boxes used to carry the ammunition for all these weapons were not the same and, when it comes to artillery, the ammunition itself is markedly different in appearance.

Light artillery normally fires fixed ammunition, but it is not all the same in appearance across the calibres and function.  Heavier artillery often has two-part ammunition comprising a shell and separate charge.  The former often needs a cradle, used by two crew to offer it up to the breech of the weapon, and one of the crew will have a small rammer, which may not be necessary on smaller weapons.  Some guns need a seated crew member.

My solution has been to convert my own since there is really nothing out there that entirely fits the bill.  Generic is almost always unsatisfactory, in my opinion, and the solution, I think, would be to revisit the crew served weapons on offer, and design crews specifically for the weapon in question.

An associated issue, for which converting figures has been the only solution, is movement.  I like to have a moving team for each firing team, which avoids the need for some kind of marker to indicate what it is doing.  Moving and firing teams for LMG, MMG etc would be far more use than casualty markers, the purpose of which still eludes me.

steve_holmes_11

Quote from: Leon on 14 September 2020, 11:03:30 PM
We're moving on to some of the WWII website photos soon which will help quite a lot!  We're also going to add separate crews as a catalogue code as well.

Bazinga!!!
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I've looked at the artillery crew that are pictured.
There seems to be a guy kneeling, cradling something like a '75 shell.
The shell is an irritant, but can probably be drilled out / painted over.

I think there's another kneeling figure usually with his back presented to the camera.
Those guys can do most of the "crew work".

I'm hoping to find a suitable "corporal" either observing or pointing among the forward observer troops.

steve_holmes_11

Quote from: John Cook on 15 September 2020, 12:07:55 PM
Generic will not do it, in my opinion.  Even in WW2 the variety of uniforms is sufficient that a single generic 'crew' figure is no good, and the weapon itself dictates the role and, therefore, the posture of the figures in a crew. 

For example, LMG and MMG generally have crews of between 2 and 6, some weapons are belt fed, others magazine fed.  Mortars had at least as many crew.  A British 3" Mortar platoon in 1940, for example, comprised two sections of 8 men and a 15cwt truck to carry the weapons and ammunition.  LMG will, generally, require a prone crew while MMG and mortars will require, on the whole, kneeling/sitting figures.  The boxes used to carry the ammunition for all these weapons were not the same and, when it comes to artillery, the ammunition itself is markedly different in appearance.

Light artillery normally fires fixed ammunition, but it is not all the same in appearance across the calibres and function.  Heavier artillery often has two-part ammunition comprising a shell and separate charge.  The former often needs a cradle, used by two crew to offer it up to the breech of the weapon, and one of the crew will have a small rammer, which may not be necessary on smaller weapons.  Some guns need a seated crew member.

My solution has been to convert my own since there is really nothing out there that entirely fits the bill.  Generic is almost always unsatisfactory, in my opinion, and the solution, I think, would be to revisit the crew served weapons on offer, and design crews specifically for the weapon in question.

An associated issue, for which converting figures has been the only solution, is movement.  I like to have a moving team for each firing team, which avoids the need for some kind of marker to indicate what it is doing.  Moving and firing teams for LMG, MMG etc would be far more use than casualty markers, the purpose of which still eludes me.


Good points John, but for my context (Chain of command) and most wargames I've seen the crew comprises the men actually serving the piece.
Crew size varies by ruleset, but I'm prepared to compromise with kneeling figures grouped around the piece.

Chain of Command's on-table weapons tend to be light mortars, tripod machineguns, anti-tank and infantry guns.
Rather smaller than the 2 part ammunition cannon.

John Cook

Steve, I'm not familiar with Chain of Command.  The rules I use have no restrictions on crews one way or the other.