End of the tank in the British Army?

Started by flamingpig0, 26 August 2020, 09:47:52 AM

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Westmarcher

I like the 'old' Chally 2. I understand it has the reputation for being the most heavily armoured western tank. It certainly did well for young Guy along the road when his tank drove into Basra, got hit by RPGs, 'rocked' and moved on. A BAE(?)/ Rheinmetall partnership is currently bidding for the Chally life extension programme contract, recently releasing a very tasting looking video of a Chally 2 with a new turret mounting a new 130 mm smoothbore gun - a gun that may start to replace the ubiquitous 120mm gun in time. But in my heart I know it is not going to happen due to fiscal constraints.

And that is the main driver for doing away with tanks, not their tactical usefulness. If going into a fight in Europe (and better to fight there than in our own streets and fields), we would rather have a tank in support than not at all. With their joint future tank programme, Germany and France appear to see a need for tanks. Also interesting why the Dutch sold all their tanks but now have a squadron in a German tank battalion. Perhaps it's because you don't need a ship to travel from Moscow to Berlin.

There is no doubt that armoured warfare tactics and the nature of 'tanks' themselves must evolve to meet the challenges of the ever more complicated modern battlefield. Whilst waiting for the Germans, French & Yanks to figure out the shape of future armoured warfare, if we do away with ours, I think we should retain the RTR (even if only in squadron strength), with a few Challies in the meantime as an armoured warfare training and study unit. After all, even if you don't have them, you may still have to fight agin 'em.  But what do I know? I'm just a Horse & Musket man.
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toxicpixie

Eminently sensible - I can keeping a "training cadre" at maybe battalion strength as part of the Royal Armoured Corps - probably integrated in the US Army, given current issues? Unless Johnson elevates any more Russian mafiosa into the Lords in which case we could integrate with them instead :D

Maybe test drive Armata assuming it's not still vapourware ;)
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flamingpig0

Quote from: Sandinista on 29 August 2020, 02:01:02 AM
I suppose the key point is what role does the UK see itself playing post Brexit, and will tanks be needed in that role?


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Ian

The special relationship of being  5th wheel to the USA whichever  faction  wins out in November.
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"We don't want your stupid tanks!" 
Salah Askar,

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Sandinista

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 29 August 2020, 06:30:34 PM
The special relationship of being  5th wheel to the USA whichever  faction  wins out in November.

I think that relationship is more special to the UK than it is to the USA, especially as they have lost their ease of access to the EU - both politically and economically.

Cheers
Ian


Orcs

I seem to remember that the Russian doctrine uring the coldwar, was to put old tanks (T34's) into storage rather than dispose of them. Because in an all out war with NATO they expected to loose most if not all of their Frontline armour in removing the Nato tanks.  However after they had done this they expected NATO to be very very short on Armoured Vehicles and A/T weapons.

When that happened the average squaddie had nothing to effectively stop any tank and they would roll up the unsupported infantry with T34's
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

We did the same with the Cents when Cheiftains came in, and kept upgrading them too
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Matt J

Israel rolled out its old Sherman's in '73 which had been upgraded. Used behind cents m48s and m60s.
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flamingpig0

Quote from: Orcs on 08 October 2020, 09:58:00 AM
I seem to remember that the Russian doctrine uring the coldwar, was to put old tanks (T34's) into storage rather than dispose of them. Because in an all out war with NATO they expected to loose most if not all of their Frontline armour in removing the Nato tanks.  However after they had done this they expected NATO to be very very short on Armoured Vehicles and A/T weapons.

When that happened the average squaddie had nothing to effectively stop any tank and they would roll up the unsupported infantry with T34's

Apparently during  the Ogaden war in the eighties the Ethiopian had an allied T34 contingent from South Yemen - list writers note!
"I like coffee exceedingly..."
 H.P. Lovecraft

"We don't want your stupid tanks!" 
Salah Askar,

My six degrees of separation includes Osama Bin Laden, Hitler, and Wendy James

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Quote from: Matt J on 08 October 2020, 10:25:02 AM
Israel rolled out its old Sherman's in '73 which had been upgraded. Used behind cents m48s and m60s.

Not quite Matt, the Jordanians had Cents and M48's - so to avoid blue on blue kills the Isralies used their M51's.
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toxicpixie

As others say, everyone quietly mothballed their kit in readiness.

OFC all those Soviet follow on troops might have a little difficulty in reaching Western Europe as most of NATO's warplans essentially involved glassing them and the transport links on the outbreak of war, and any that did manage to roll in would likely be facing reserve AMX-75's, Centurion/Comet, M48/46 etc from NATO's equally as large if more quietly not mentioned reserves. Assuming they were also weren't glowing gently/had more bacteria and chemicals than a late night donner kebab ;)

That's an interesting read - poor practise doesn't help (see Turkish Leo2 losses as well as the Armenians), but it looks like "off the shelf" tech has caught up to where NATO thought it was over the Warpac in the 80's - we know what you're doing and where, we can listen to you and redirect you, you can't hide and you can't run, and 'cos you're a generation behind you can't respond...

Interesting conclusion on the future of the tank - no one at all can hide, infantry, light AFV's, helicopters or drones, so maybe stealth as well as you can and load up on the armour and defensive systems and hope enough of you are well enough dispersed and then fast enough to concentrate to take/hold the ground... which sounds like heavy mech forces in the sort of "heavy IFV" based on tank chassis and heavier tanks prioritising active & passive defences with attached and integral EWO and AAA out the wazoo...

I'm off to dust off my Space Marines and Land Raiders, got to talk to a man from the MOD ;)
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Matt J

Ian

Sherman's called up by Isreal because of high attrition of cents and m60s in the Sinai.
Jordan involvement barely token in '73 and there was an agreement for Jordanian Isreali forces to avoid each other.
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