End of the tank in the British Army?

Started by flamingpig0, 26 August 2020, 09:47:52 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

toxicpixie

Yes we did, they paid the money and we kept the tanks (although that's also tied with Chieftain?) - we agreed we owe them the cash in court, and then went "nyaaaaah you're not getting it!". It's allegedly now tied up with Nazanin Ratcliffe, who the Iranians have indicated they'd be happy to release if only we paid what we owe...

Hammurabi - yes, the whole drone/"any pleb can kill a tank" argument is why it looks a very cheap option to ditch them. However, they're still astonishingly useful, when well crewed and employed they're actually very difficult to kill without a similar generation MBT to do it (those Leo2's the Turks keep losing are due to terrible usage - plonking a tank company unsupported in the middle of nowhere and then nodding off for a few hours is a Bad Tactical Decision). Drones and RPV's don't yet have the capacity to be as useful or as protected on the ground...

Air wise it's a bit different - I see an AI pilot has just racked up a five-nil kill ratio against a USAF Fighter Combat School instructor (albeit under rather strict operating parameters), but much of that capacity is going into augmenting the *pilots* and taking the cognitive load of flying the plane and juggling threats and systems off them so they fight their aircraft and retain situational awareness etc without wondering if they left the gas on, as it were ;)

John, I think Vickers as was had been privately doing some work on what would become Challenger 2 a year or two before that - how much was "we'd like to sell someone a shiny new money pit" and how much was "here's a solid design and a schedule for a prototype" I have no idea :D As to what kind of warfighting we expect? About the only thing we can say is that however we prepare to fight the last, or indeed current, war, the next one won't be the same.

Judging by the Army's official statements & off the record mumblings they want a/ a new, current plus generation MBT, but b/ will settle for a fifteen year extension on Challenger 2's capability life as long as they get the new tank when it runs out...
I provide a cheap, quick painting service to get you table top quality figures ready to roll - www.facebook.com/jtppainting

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Big Insect

Maybe it is time for a major rethink ... blue-sky ... out of the box.

Driver-less armoured vehicles are already with us - the Israelis are using them to patrol their borders
Of course they are not fully autonomous as they have a 'crew' back at base - same as a Cruise missile has an operator - but with the current driver-less tech advancing rapidly it is all heading towards a 'drone-tank' that only needs to defend/protect itself not its crew.

It might lead to a concept of a 'throw-away' MBT - cheaper to produce, fast, lower weight and armour - really just a fast moving semi-autonomous weapons platform.

Are we 'wedded' to the concept of a tracked or wheeled heavily armoured 'tank' when the reality of the modern and near-future battlefield has made it obsolete?
Grav is not quite with us yet - but there is always that old fashioned (1960s) hover approach  :o

I am aware that these are all options being researched and considered - but whether by the MoD I cannot confirm.
It could carry its own aeriel-drone defence capabilities and will have an incredibly low profile (for am MBT) ... but is it a 'Tank'?

Mark

Of course we will need an APC/AFV replacement though to put those much needed boots on the ground as well.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Ithoriel

Fleets of expensive, heavily armoured IFVs protected by swarms of cheap AI weapons platforms and covered by their own (mini?) UAVs?

IFVs carrying mini drones in the same way battleships carried seaplanes?

Armoured, networked infantry with HUD helmets and smart weapons?

And if they ever clash in a major war, the one following fought with clubs and rocks?

I hope to not live in "interesting times" nor to come to the attention of important people :)
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

toxicpixie

Guardium? Yes, that's a very interesting bit of kit and may well be the future... BUT there's the usual problems - deployed against a vastly inferior enemy in a secure battlespace remote operation is great, as is when you have a great response speed and local knowledge. What's likely to be less great is when you're against an at tier adversary who has already shown their ability to own your electronic battlespace. You may find the enemy owns your combat forces... or even in the first situation, you may find your drones wander off and commit a few atrocities off their own bat, accidentally, and broadcast the lot to everyone listening...

For response in combat and interarms cooperation nothing actually beats the tank commander sticking his head out and talking to the troops on foot, and nothing much beats an MBT for sheer ground combat potential.

Hover motive systems aren't in the running, wheeled are good in many ways but for serious heavy metal tracks still edge it (maintenance not withstanding...). "Grav Drive" is even less likely than room temperature fusion power :D

I suspect an integrated combat team with (semi) autonomous weapons platforms (or "MBT" drone with one heavily protected crewmember could be made pretty small in comparison to a full four crew, big protected turret vehicle) alongside with infantry with more drones and smaller support platforms, in a similar "minimal operator" AFV/drone vehicle with yet more integrated drone control/recharge/launching capacity would give the best of both worlds. But we're not there yet...

Whatever the MoD may want is pretty irrelevant compared to what an ideologically driven government is doing to their budgets. If the contractors convince their tame MPs to bump them the funds they'll get whatever looks profitable, if they don't they'll get squeezed into whatever crumbs are decided can be spared. And the wheels of military procurement drive slowly at the best of times; it won't be until it was needed in anger six months ago that anything starts to be done.

We're a long way from OGRE/BOLO or even Hammers Slammers, I think. OFC it might be tanks and combat infantry et al are the battleship of 1940, and are about to be relegated to expensive luxuries with minimal combat applications, but I doubt it.
I provide a cheap, quick painting service to get you table top quality figures ready to roll - www.facebook.com/jtppainting

mmcv

Quote from: toxicpixie on 27 August 2020, 11:21:02 AM
OFC it might be tanks and combat infantry et al are the battleship of 1940, and are about to be relegated to expensive luxuries with minimal combat applications, but I doubt it.

Maybe we should be replacing them with Mobile Drone Platforms supported by lighter armoured vehicles (a la aircraft carrier fleets). Then they can launch a swarm of drones at short notice to respond to the tactical situation on the ground (recon, attack, defense...).

Of course, drones are still pretty big....so that's likely a while off.

We just need to get on with inventing those massive airships of anime/comic fame.

flamingpig0

"I like coffee exceedingly..."
 H.P. Lovecraft

"We don't want your stupid tanks!" 
Salah Askar,

My six degrees of separation includes Osama Bin Laden, Hitler, and Wendy James

toxicpixie

Quote from: mmcv on 27 August 2020, 11:48:40 AM
Maybe we should be replacing them with Mobile Drone Platforms supported by lighter armoured vehicles (a la aircraft carrier fleets). Then they can launch a swarm of drones at short notice to respond to the tactical situation on the ground (recon, attack, defense...).

Of course, drones are still pretty big....so that's likely a while off.

We just need to get on with inventing those massive airships of anime/comic fame.

That's a possibility that's been mentioned. Blimps are making a serious comeback for a wide variety of uses and some are already doing that (for "security" and surveillance); it's probably great in COIN ops and low key warfare but in contested airspace I suspect even with all the stealth in the world they'd get nobbled. Maybe not, if you put a lot of effort into the air supremacy arena (more drones to protect the drones!), but...

You can get drones and RPVs in lots of sizes - from Predators down to "toy" ones that have seen extensive combat use; I suspect they'll be brilliant force multipliers and a superb addition to the military tool kit but again just like the attack helicopter made the tank redundant, and the ATGW did, and tanks made infantry obsolete, and artillery and the machine gun and the smart missile means no need for combat infantry, and... they won't remove the need for a heavy armoured, heavy gunned platform with an experienced crew/commander up on the front lines.

Flamingpig0 - interesting that an article from 2018 rehashes the same argument we had thirty years earlier and comes to the same conclusion :D Midn you it's written by one the people responsible for that conclusion, so I guess it's much the same!
I provide a cheap, quick painting service to get you table top quality figures ready to roll - www.facebook.com/jtppainting

Sandinista

I suppose the key point is what role does the UK see itself playing post Brexit, and will tanks be needed in that role? If so where will the money come from, as many people say that the economy has been wrecked by the decision to leave the EU?

Cheers
Ian

Techno

I'm worried that Nobby hasn't posted in this thread.

Do you think he's in shock ?

Cheers - Phil

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

No - as far he is concerend the last British tank retired in the early 80's
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Last Hussar

Somebody want to link me to all the great Viet Nam war tank battles? Which tanks do Isis use? Remind me of the success of tanks in Ulster?
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

There were several tank actions in the final year of the Veinam war, North using T55 and its clones, South a mix of M48 and M41.
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

toxicpixie

Isis have used a variety of ex-Soviet Tanks as well as a number of M1's captured from the Iraqi's.

I don't think western troops have faced them on the ground but heavy armour has proved consistently useful in Afghanistan and Iraq. Nothing multiplies a force like a 60t MBT.
I provide a cheap, quick painting service to get you table top quality figures ready to roll - www.facebook.com/jtppainting

mmcv

There were a few Centurions used in Operation Motorman to clear no-go areas in Belfast and Derry. But thankfully tanks weren't used too much.