How many flags in an 1809 Austrian Infantry Regiment

[John Cook]

I checked.  You are also right about the inhaber having to provide the flags. 

[Zippee]

It's nice to be right occasionally

Austrian procurement parsimony is almost legendary, I'd concur that 1792 are likely to predominate in 1809.

However the existence of 'spare' flags has always puzzled me somewhat, given that there is no regimental association and its 'one flag fits all' one wonders why there would be significant numbers of spares if inhabers are procuring them. Does 'spare' actually mean 'old'? One would expect grenadier battalions to be issued with quality flags not shoddy moth-eaten things from storage.

There appears to be a quantity of ordinarfahne knocking around that get used as and when is needed, the question is why would there be any?

It's all a bit odd.

[John Cook]

I've been continuing my conversation with Dave Hollins about the flags.  He is "inclined to agree that there were not that many 1806 around in 1809".  As for procurement times, he points out that "it took ten years to issue the 1798 musket and about six to issue the shakos".  So, if we apply that kind of time scale to flags, we wouldn't expect to see Pattern 1806 in general use until 1812 to 1816 but I concede that is no more than speculation. 

As for the war-time grenadier battalions' flags, apparently "there were some kept in the depots for the grenadiers".  Not sure who paid for them though or how many were held.  There were also a lot of surplus ordinarfahnen after the reduction of flags in 1808.  Some of these may have been modified Pattern 1780, which was done by the simple, and economic, expedient of altering the J to an F, so anything from 16 to 28 years old in 1808 but some, presumably, still serviceable. 

When you look at the custom in other countries, flags were only changed when there was a need.  We find that, generally speaking, they were not replaced until they wore out, or were captured.  Would the Austrians be any different? 

I will persevere with the ordinarfahnen/grenadier battalions question and see where it leads.

[mollinary]

It's nice to be right occasionally

Austrian procurement parsimony is almost legendary, I'd concur that 1792 are likely to predominate in 1809.

However the existence of 'spare' flags has always puzzled me somewhat, given that there is no regimental association and its 'one flag fits all' one wonders why there would be significant numbers of spares if inhabers are procuring them. Does 'spare' actually mean 'old'? One would expect grenadier battalions to be issued with quality flags not shoddy moth-eaten things from storage.

There appears to be a quantity of ordinarfahne knocking around that get used as and when is needed, the question is why would there be any?

It's all a bit odd.

Wasn't the answer contained in a very early post?  Austrian Battalions had two flags per Battalion from 1792-1805, and one thereafter. So after 1805 50% of the existing model 1792 flags, all ordinarfahnen, would be surplus to requirements. Or have I missed something as usual?

[John Cook]

Yes, pretty much.  See also Dave Hollins article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Imperial_Austrian_Army_of_the_Napoleonic_Wars.  The date of the reduction to a single flag per battalion was indeed 1805, not 1808 as in my post above.  The flags presented to Landwehr/Freiwillige in 1809 would probably have been Pattern 1792, surplus to requirements after 1805, although there were also a few Pattern 1806 presented to these units, the origin of which is not clear to me at the moment.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

While I've got your attention...
Colonels, brigadiers and divisional generals in the infantry...
The Pendraken mounted Hungarian officer is on his coat, brown on the website, is that universal or just artillery?
Senior generals white with red trousers etc?
Cavalry I'll ask another time.
Ta in advance.

[Last Hussar]

I've gone with White with Red for my Generals.  The 2nd man on the command stand white trousers, ie standard dress. Hungarian officers (not generals)  white/blue.

I'm probably wrong.

[John Cook]

While I've got your attention...
Colonels, brigadiers and divisional generals in the infantry...
The Pendraken mounted Hungarian officer is on his coat, brown on the website, is that universal or just artillery?
Senior generals white with red trousers etc?
Cavalry I'll ask another time.
Ta in advance.

Hi, more or less I think.  General officers (Generalmajor upwards) white with red breeches, field and junior officers (Oberst and below) the uniform of their regiment.  The officers' uberrock, what we'd call a frock coat I think, was grey, really quite dark verging on charcoal in all the pics I've seen.  If I remember correctly the colour was termed wolfgrau for what that is worth.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Thanks chaps, appreciate it.

[Zippee]

Wasn't the answer contained in a very early post?  Austrian Battalions had two flags per Battalion from 1792-1805, and one thereafter. So after 1805 50% of the existing model 1792 flags, all ordinarfahnen, would be surplus to requirements. Or have I missed something as usual?

Well no not quite but sort of. The change to a single flag in 1805 was temporary and as the number of battalions increased merely absorbed the existing flags (if there were numerous 'spares' why the need to reduce to a single flag?)

The reduction to a single flag was in 1808 post the 1806 redesign, perhaps to make the resupply cheaper? Anyway lots of flags were lost in 1805 so we can't really confirm a significant surplus created by this reduction. I can also imagine that lost flags would more likely to be replaced by new designs and serviceable 1792 flags being retained - both as a cost saving and as a not-so-subtle statement of "we didn't lose ours"

But none of that matters as we are still supposed to believe in a surplus of ordinarfahne to equip the combined grenadiers prior to 1805 - and it is described as a surplus flag (although that may be a repeating misquote from some secondary citation. I note JC quotes DH without using the term but it's still not "the grenadiers' flags were kept at depot until required"). I'd quite understand that the grenadier flag was retained at depot until the battalions were formed in time of war but I doubt I'd describe that as a surplus flag.

Austria is legendary for its parsimony but also seems to be the only nation with surplus flags lying around in case of need, weird.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Perhaps they were used to losing them....

[WeeWars]

While I've got your attention...
Colonels, brigadiers and divisional generals in the infantry...
The Pendraken mounted Hungarian officer is on his coat, brown on the website, is that universal or just artillery?
Senior generals white with red trousers etc?
Cavalry I'll ask another time.
Ta in advance.

The Hungarian colonel - go with a grey coat, keep brown for your artillery, as you say.

www.michaelscott.name/1809/1809blogpost127.htm

Generals -

www.michaelscott.name/1809/1809blogpost157.htm

Senior officers could also wear grey over-trousers - see the link to Post 139.

[John Cook]

Yes, as I understand it there were two reductions to a single flag per battalion.  The first in June 1805, with a return to the two flags per battalion in the interim in December 1806, and a second reduction in 1808.   Hope I've got that clear, in my own mind as much as anybody else's.  The flags no longer required were held at the depot or, as suggested elsewhere, in chapels or churches at the seats of the inhaber.  This pretty much the usual thing to do with military artefacts of this kind.  But, where they were held is not important.

Those taken out of use in 1805 would, we can reasonably assume, be taken back into use in 1806, and could also be used to replace flags lost between October and December 1805.  Those taken out of use as a result of the 1808 reduction would have been available in 1809.

Working out how many ordinarfahnen might be available, potentially, in 1809 is a matter, I think, of arithmetic. 

Prior to the reduction to one flag per battalion in 1808, I think we agree that a regiment had one leibfahne and five ordinarfahnen. One leibfahne and one ordinarfahne for the 1. or Leibbataillon, two ordinarfahnen for the 2. or Oberstsbataillon and two ordinarfahnen for the 3. or Oberstlieutenantsbataillon.   

In 1808 there were, according to the list I have in front of me, 63 regiments.  Assuming all had a full complement of one leibfahne and five ordinarfahnen (I concede they might not) and that each returned three ordinarfahnen, retaining just two, one for the second and one for the third battalion, I calculate that comes, in theory, to a maximum 189 ordinarfahnen that were surplus to requirements.

Even if you assume that the losses at Ulm (45 of all kinds) and Austerlitz (?) were made good from this figure, it is still going to leave a substantial number available in 1809.

A similar reduction, resulting in eagles and flags that were no longer required, happened in France.  It is not a unique occurrence and these kinds of artefacts are not usually thrown away.

As for what happened with grenadier battalions before 1805, I have no idea I'm afraid. 

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Thank you gentlemen.

[Zippee]

Yes, as I understand it there were two reductions to a single flag per battalion.  The first in June 1805, with a return to the two flags per battalion in the interim in December 1806, and a second reduction in 1808.   Hope I've got that clear, in my own mind as much as anybody else's.  The flags no longer required were held at the depot or, as suggested elsewhere, in chapels or churches at the seats of the inhaber.  This pretty much the usual thing to do with military artefacts of this kind.  But, where they were held is not important.

Those taken out of use in 1805 would, we can reasonably assume, be taken back into use in 1806, and could also be used to replace flags lost between October and December 1805.  Those taken out of use as a result of the 1808 reduction would have been available in 1809.

Working out how many ordinarfahnen might be available, potentially, in 1809 is a matter, I think, of arithmetic. 

Prior to the reduction to one flag per battalion in 1808, I think we agree that a regiment had one leibfahne and five ordinarfahnen. One leibfahne and one ordinarfahne for the 1. or Leibbataillon, two ordinarfahnen for the 2. or Oberstsbataillon and two ordinarfahnen for the 3. or Oberstlieutenantsbataillon.   

In 1808 there were, according to the list I have in front of me, 63 regiments.  Assuming all had a full complement of one leibfahne and five ordinarfahnen (I concede they might not) and that each returned three ordinarfahnen, retaining just two, one for the second and one for the third battalion, I calculate that comes, in theory, to a maximum 189 ordinarfahnen that were surplus to requirements.

Even if you assume that the losses at Ulm (45 of all kinds) and Austerlitz (?) were made good from this figure, it is still going to leave a substantial number available in 1809.

A similar reduction, resulting in eagles and flags that were no longer required, happened in France.  It is not a unique occurrence and these kinds of artefacts are not usually thrown away.

As for what happened with grenadier battalions before 1805, I have no idea I'm afraid. 

That seems plausible, but just to add some numbers in:

In 1793 there are 57 IR plus 2 garrison regiments (5 & 6) with an establishment of 3 battalions (4 in Hungarian regts, 2 in the garrisons) each with 2 flags and at least 1 "spare" for use by the grenadier companies if they are the senior regiment of the combined battalion. I have no idea how many flags the garrison regts had but the 17 Grenz IR (2 or 3 battalions each) each have 1 leibfahne and 1 (or 2) ordinarfahne issued (officially not be carried on the field - again no idea if that was actually the case).

In 1798 the 4th battalions of the Hungarian regts are combined to establish IR 60, 61 & 62 so all 60 IR now have 3 battalions (shouldn't impact the flag ration, although presumably we now have the need for 3 more leibfahne)

In 1805 a single flag is issued to each battalion in the new 5 battalion organisation - so we have at least 2 "spare" ordinafahne in depot but this is a very temporary thing

In 1806 things revert to 'normal' so three battalions with 2 flags and at least 1 "spare" for all 60 IR, plus the garrison battalions plus the GIR allocation (which by 1807 appears to be 1 ordinarfahne per battalion, don't know what happened to the leibfahne, re-assigned perhaps?)

In 1808 the allocation is reduced to 1 flag per IR battalion, in theory that should produce 180 "spare" ordinarfahne in addition to the 60 "spare" grenadier flags - so a max of some 240 give or take (maybe the GIR gave up their leibfahne for spare ordinarfahne at some point)

From that we deduct losses from all campaigns (surely not more than 1 per regiment when averaged I would think) and add the new flags decreed in 1806 and issued prior to mobilisation in 1809

In 1809 we have in addition to the 60 IR and 17 GIR the 17 grenadier battalions in I & II Reserve Corps plus 2 others, so that accounts for 19 "spare" grenadier flags

There were something like 70 odd landwehr battalions raised that I'm aware of so that's another 70+ "spares"

Then there are friecorps and units like the EKL (6 battalions) - some of these may have carried individual state flags, some may not have had any as jager equivalents but lets assume they got a "spare" and call it another dozen or so.

All-in-all that doesn't ad up to much more than 100 allocated "spares" - it would seem highly likely that even taking losses into account there would be more than enough spare flags from the 1808 reduction to account for that allocation.

Then there's the Insurrection troops - I have little info on them and no idea if they were issued flags or not nor in what numbers but I don't think they would have depleted stocks judging by this accounting (rough and ready as it is) or at least I don't think they would care if they had no Austrian flag to carry