Command overrun: a query

Started by henjed, 02 June 2020, 11:46:27 AM

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henjed

Good morning,

This may be my first although I have been a lurker for while, and bought my first Pendraken mjnis back in 220%(?) - early WW1 for us with GWSpearHead.  in 2016 I bought some Indochina War figures for use with IABSM; and I have last Autumn (at Colours) and this year been putting together British and Italian forces for 1940-42 N Africa campaigns, using BKCIV (I bought an earlier version, which I still have, but never got around to using it).

I've now fought three battles with my one of my sons.  Really enjoyable games, like the flow of the rules; but I have a few queries (not too many as the forum has been really helpful with most of the others).

The main one arises from the game we played yesterday: a deliberate attack by Brits on the Italians. He managed to get a Valentine near to my CO (sneaky flank attack :o)

He close assaulted it in his Command Phase: as the CO and HQ units have a CA rating in the Army Lists I thought the CO stand could "fight back" (however ineffectively) but the section on Command Overrun suggests that they just get Hits (and give none) and as a result are overrun, &c,.

Is this right? Should Command Units have CA ratings/factors at all?  And what happens (as happened - risibly - the first time the CO was attacked when the attacking unit fails to give it any Hits?

Thanking you (all) in advance ;-)

Mike

Duke Speedy of Leighton

You may refer to me as: Your Grace, Duke Speedy of Leighton.
2016 Pendraken Painting Competion Participation Prize  (Lucky Dip Catagory) Winner

henjed

Thank you - I rather feel at home here. :)

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Quote from: henjed on 02 June 2020, 01:00:22 PM
Thank you - I rather feel at home here. :)

It wont last long - hi !
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
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fsn

Good afternoon Henjed.

I think North Africa is the one theatre I don't play in WWII, so please don't post photos just in case I get attracted. Especially no photos of M3 tanks 'cos I don't have any of them.

Welcome to the Forum.
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
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2023 - the year of Gerald:
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henjed

I have a squadron of Honeys painted up, but - thankfully (I play Italians) - they performed poorly yesterday.  And you're lucky that my photography skills are as poor as my painting skills.  I will keep my shame covered  :-[

Ithoriel

Welcome henjed!

To answer your question, bearing in mind our group has played all 4 versions of BKC and group think sometimes results in us playing a sort of blended version of all four, if no hits are inflicted on the Command Unit it acts as normal thereafter - running away rapidly if they have any sense.

We allow Command Units to retaliate in Close Combat - their real life equivalents were armed after all.

(Another) Mike
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

fsn

Quote from: henjed on 02 June 2020, 02:02:40 PM
I have a squadron of Honeys painted up, but - thankfully (I play Italians) - they performed poorly yesterday.  And you're lucky that my photography skills are as poor as my painting skills.  I will keep my shame covered  :-[
Forgive my inexactitude. I was thinking of the M3 Grant.




I can't abide the Honey. but reluctantly support the US Marines with a pair.
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

henjed

That's good to know.  As it happens, my Italian commander, Pietro Angioletti (named after an Italian cider which I was drinking as I was playing) did indeed head for the hills after the failed overrun, although he still lost he game for me (narrowly) with some well dodgy Command rolls.

I noticed that the earlier version of BKC I have gives no CA factors to Command units; so was there a decision to allow them to "retaliate" when attacked, rolling however many/few dice, which perhaps wasn't reflected in the Command Overrun paragraph (which may have been carried over from II or II)?  I would certainly have preferred for Pietro Angioletti to have had a chance to poke the Matilda in its metaphorical eye (however ineffectively) before running away.

henjed

fsn, or Lord Oik (I know Runcorn for its bridge and its woolley-backs), my son was inspired to get the Honeys by Crisps's "Brazen Chariots", but I have found his Vickers A13s a tougher challenge for my M13s.

(and I won't tell anyone about your brace of Honeys...)

fsn

Quote from: henjed on 02 June 2020, 02:58:40 PM
my son was inspired to get the Honeys by Crisps's "Brazen Chariots", but I have found his Vickers A13s a tougher challenge for my M13s.

I likes me some A13's (and A9's and a10's), but I'm more of an Infantry tank man myself. More comfortable with a Matilda II or a Valentine.
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Big Insect

Quote from: henjed on 02 June 2020, 02:29:58 PM
That's good to know.  As it happens, my Italian commander, Pietro Angioletti (named after an Italian cider which I was drinking as I was playing) did indeed head for the hills after the failed overrun, although he still lost he game for me (narrowly) with some well dodgy Command rolls.

I noticed that the earlier version of BKC I have gives no CA factors to Command units; so was there a decision to allow them to "retaliate" when attacked, rolling however many/few dice, which perhaps wasn't reflected in the Command Overrun paragraph (which may have been carried over from II or II)?  I would certainly have preferred for Pietro Angioletti to have had a chance to poke the Matilda in its metaphorical eye (however ineffectively) before running away.

Welcome Henjed - it's been a while since I got me head fully around BKC IV to be frank - I am currently heavily immersed in CWCII rewrite and a fast-play Feudal Japanese set of rule.
TBF I need to recheck the BKCIV rules and also look back at  BKCIII as this might be an 'over-hang' from BKCIII.
The fact that I cannot remember off the top of my head what I wrote & why there are CA factors for Commandersin BKCIV you'll just have to forgive for, for now.
It helps to have a memory like mine when writing multiple rule sets - as that way you don't get too much 'carry-over' - so your Roman Auxillia don't suddenly end up with RPG infantry upgrades ... although I have used Scorpion (Ballista) upgrades for legionaries - IMHO they work more historically that way.

Leave it with me - I'll get back to you later today.
Cheers
Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

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henjed

Thanks for the response, Mark/Big Insect.  I'm conscious that rule-sets function best when accepted as 'works in progress'; and house rules, adjustments and delightful titivations are a necessary part of reflecting the rich and manifold tapestry of gaming life  :D

We've played each of our three game so far with different ways of dealing with hits, and I'm yet to decide (a) which I prefer and (b) which might be "more realistic".  I think more games are needed.

Techno

....and a belated welcome from me !!

Cheers - Phil

Orcs

Welcome to the Forum Henjed.

The Western desert is a very unfortunate period to play, as myself and Sunjester found out.  The tanks available to either side change almost every 3 months, so if you try and fight battles over the whole 1940-1942 period you end up collecting loads of vehicles to fit in with what was available at any given date. Or you just use proxies.





The cynics are right nine times out of ten. -Mencken, H. L.

Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well. - Robert Louis Stevenson