Pendraken Miniatures Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
18 April 2021, 01:21:07 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
We've added the first wave of Fantasy Monsters!!
321896 Posts in 18512 Topics by 2312 Members
Latest Member: Zookie
* Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
+  Pendraken Miniatures Forum
|-+  Wider Wargaming
| |-+  Networking
| | |-+  Blogs
| | | |-+  Overthinking basing
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Overthinking basing  (Read 2180 times)
mmcv
Brigadier
*
Posts: 2163


WWW
« on: 14 April 2020, 06:00:57 PM »

https://mmcvhistory.home.blog/2020/04/14/the-great-basing-debate/

In which I ramble endlessly on about basing issues, and come to some conclusions that I hopefully won't change again after another night lying awake!  Grin
Logged

Steve J
General
*
Posts: 9362


« Reply #1 on: 14 April 2020, 06:30:42 PM »

Interesting reading Matthew. I've pretty much settled on 25mm square bases for my BP games, with 4 bases to a unit. It just works for me and importantly can be used across several rulesets should I choose to do so.
Logged

http://wwiiwargaming.blogspot.co.uk/

2017 Paint-Off - 2 x Winner!
mmcv
Brigadier
*
Posts: 2163


WWW
« Reply #2 on: 14 April 2020, 06:38:04 PM »

Interesting reading Matthew. I've pretty much settled on 25mm square bases for my BP games, with 4 bases to a unit. It just works for me and importantly can be used across several rulesets should I choose to do so.

Thanks, I suspect I'll do something similar for gunpowder where formations and maneuver is so important. I am actually doing the Crimean war in 2mm using 25mm squares and it works well. Just didn't quite sit right with me for ancients!
Logged

fred.
Lieutenant General
*
Posts: 5685



WWW
« Reply #3 on: 14 April 2020, 07:28:42 PM »

You have done a lot of thinking about this!

A couple of my thoughts

1) completely agree with moving cavalry from 50x50 to 40x40 bases - the only reason I see for rules having deeper bases for cavalry is that 28mm cavalry figures are big! And 25x50mm bases are the standard - this is seen across lots of rulesets. In 10mm this is far less of a problem

2) Basing - to reduce a large amount of the problems of getting basing material on the figures, I combine the brown paint, adding sand and adding figures into one stage! I mix PVA with brown paint, coat the base with a layer of this, then add the figures, adding a little PVA/paint to the edges and any larger areas of the top of the base, then liberally coat in sand. Let dry for a good while (4+ hours). This then gives you figures based and sanded, with the sand a reasonable shade of brown. I will then do a bit of dry brushing then add flock. I only add flock to about 50% of the base, and use a brush that I can get in-between the figures with to avoid gluing flock to the figures

3) 40x20mm bases - the good old warmaster standard. I've got lots (and had even more) figures based like this, but have moved over the last few years to 40x40mm squares, not least to allow cavalry and infantry to have the same frontage, and to give a bit more space on bases for the figures, rather than cramming them together as per the GW Warmaster basing.

4) If getting armies on the table is your key driver, then the fewest figures is probably most important to you. So getting a balance between figure density that looks OK, and base size is key. Which suggests the smaller the base the better. But I'd probably go for square bases over rectangular ones, as they can be used for more systems.

5) I've gone as small as 20mm squares, but find these a bit fiddly, but you can keep the figure count pretty low!

Good luck!
Logged

2011 Painting Competition - Winner!
2012 Painting Competition - 2 x Runner-Up!
2016 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2017 Paint-Off - 3 x Winner!
mmcv
Brigadier
*
Posts: 2163


WWW
« Reply #4 on: 14 April 2020, 09:10:47 PM »

Thanks for your comments Fred.

1) For sure, down with the tyranny of 28mm sizings!  Grin

2) interesting technique, I have a bunch of crusaders to base (on 40x40) so may give it a go. I normally superglue the figs to the base then try and spread out some slightly watered PVA on the base and flock. I've also experimented with modelling paste which works well with the 2mm and single based figures, but would be awkward for multiple figs.

3) deeper units will be on 40x40 where more space is needed, the main reason for the 20mm depth is for grid squares where you can have two normal units to a grid square. At 40mm depth I'd need 100mm grid squares, which would then looks too gappy on the battle line. Advantage of 40x20 is I can use them together to make a 40x40 when needed. I'll likely magnetise them all so can easily sabot base when needed too.

4) I want to find a good balance between look and utility, so finding a figure density on a small enough base size is key as you say. I suspect it's one of those things I won't know until I actually do it and see. Pondering basing up my painted Aztecs in the 40x20 rather than the 80x40 I'd been planning to see how it works out.

5) I did toy with that at one point, but it was a little too small for visual appeal!

Logged

paulr
Field Marshal
*
Posts: 10770


« Reply #5 on: 15 April 2020, 12:36:53 AM »

For basing I use a mix of wall filler, paint (green) and PVA mixed to a think paste

1. cover the figure bases with PVA
2. spread the basing mix over the base
3. place figures into mix
4. blend mix onto figure bases with a toothpick or similar
5. sprinkle a little brown flock over the base then drench with 'green blend' flock

Let dry overnight and shake off excess flock. I usually end up having to use a little PVA to touch up a few spots of flock

Peasants on 40x40 bases
Logged

Lord Lensman of Wellington

2018 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
mmcv
Brigadier
*
Posts: 2163


WWW
« Reply #6 on: 15 April 2020, 12:44:39 AM »

That looks well Paul. Wall filler mixed in must make for pretty solid bases. My issues with PVA attaching in the past was the tendency for the figures to get knocked off easily. I suspect mixing the PVA with other materials to thicken as you and Fred suggest gives it a bit more strength. My previous attempts were possible too thin on the PVA.
Logged

fred.
Lieutenant General
*
Posts: 5685



WWW
« Reply #7 on: 15 April 2020, 08:06:58 AM »

I generally find PVA fine for basing. But you must let it dry throughly. You also need a reasonable amount, I will often put a layer on the figure base as well as the MDF base. One other big advantage of PVA basing, is that you can rebase the figures fairly easily - if at some point in the future you change things up. With superglue you generally have to hack a lot of base off the figures.

For crusaders (or any desert figures) I'd try the add figures and sand to base at the same time, approach, makes things much quicker and simpler. Trying to poke basing material around lots of figures is hard.

For gridded games, with 2 ranks in a box, then rectangular bases are key. 40x20 is probably the smallest you can go. 50x25mm is a lot bigger. With 40x20 you can probably get 10 max of Pendraken figures on them for close order troops - with as few as 3 or 4 for skirmishers.
Logged

2011 Painting Competition - Winner!
2012 Painting Competition - 2 x Runner-Up!
2016 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2017 Paint-Off - 3 x Winner!
mmcv
Brigadier
*
Posts: 2163


WWW
« Reply #8 on: 15 April 2020, 08:39:33 AM »

I generally find PVA fine for basing. But you must let it dry throughly. You also need a reasonable amount, I will often put a layer on the figure base as well as the MDF base. One other big advantage of PVA basing, is that you can rebase the figures fairly easily - if at some point in the future you change things up. With superglue you generally have to hack a lot of base off the figures.

For crusaders (or any desert figures) I'd try the add figures and sand to base at the same time, approach, makes things much quicker and simpler. Trying to poke basing material around lots of figures is hard.

For gridded games, with 2 ranks in a box, then rectangular bases are key. 40x20 is probably the smallest you can go. 50x25mm is a lot bigger. With 40x20 you can probably get 10 max of Pendraken figures on them for close order troops - with as few as 3 or 4 for skirmishers.

I suspect I wasn't using a thick enough amount of PVA in the past, will see how I get on. A lot of my cavalry on the 50mm squares were based with milliput. Not looking forward to rebasing them...

The 40x20 does seem the best way to go, as you say 10 figs close order should look reasonable, then 8 figs for looser order and 4 or 5 for skirmish.

I was rethinking my Aztecs along these lines and hope to base some up in this style soon to see how it goes.

Cheers.


Logged

Techno
Guest
« Reply #9 on: 15 April 2020, 08:59:50 AM »

A lot of my cavalry on the 50mm squares were based with milliput. Not looking forward to rebasing them...

That won't be fun. (Probably)

Milliput's a bit of a swine, because it sets sooooo hard.......Good luck !

Cheers - Phil Smiley
Logged
mmcv
Brigadier
*
Posts: 2163


WWW
« Reply #10 on: 15 April 2020, 09:03:21 AM »

That won't be fun. (Probably)

Milliput's a bit of a swine, because it sets sooooo hard.......Good luck !

Cheers - Phil Smiley

I know, I don't know what I was thinking! I rebased some infantry I'd previously done in milliput a little while back and had a few casualties in the process. I'm hoping that the cavalry being bigger and more spaced out it'll be easier to get leverage underneath them without collateral damage to other figs.
Logged

Big Insect
Colonel
*
*
*
Posts: 1110


« Reply #11 on: 15 April 2020, 11:18:40 AM »

The old WRG (15mm) standard for basing - adopted by other rules sets like LaDG, Warmaster, Armati, FoG etc. has been a 40mm frontage and varying depths to represent the ability to fit the models on them - so Elephants and Chariots and wagons being deep enough to accommodate the models.
Some sets used 40 x 20mm to allow double ranked close order infantry - rather than the fiddly 40 x 10mm deep bases, or 40 x 40 for loose order foot.

I've seen some lovely games with 10mm or even 6mm figures on 60mm x 60mm bases - your ancient pike blocks really do look impressive that way.
I am also fast becoming a convert to the Pendraken basing standard of 100mm x 50 mm for 10mm formations.

I base using pre-mixed polyfiller type whit filler - I stick the painted troops to the MDF base, spread the filler on - using a cocktail stick to ensure coverage onto the figure base (great minds think alike paulr  Cheesy ) I embed a few stones if appropriate. When that is all thoroughly dry I wash with a number of thin layers of earth brown (vary the colour according to the terrain - lighter id desert or darker if more damp conditions) and when that is dry I put PVA on either in patches or all over and the use static grass and a static grass applicator to put on the base grass - then I add grass clumps/tufts - mainly for my 28mm armies. I usually paint the edges of the MDF bases a dark brown - or if I am doing snow terrain a blue-grey - this is partly for effect but also becuase I have developed a loathing of my fingers smelling of burnt MDF every time I pick up a base.

But basing is a really personal thing ... I did have a period where I based using sand - especially for some of my 15mm classical ancient armies - but it just took so much longer I found.

Each to their own.

Mark

Logged
mmcv
Brigadier
*
Posts: 2163


WWW
« Reply #12 on: 20 April 2020, 10:23:55 AM »

Well, I'm committed now, just put in an order for some bulk bags of 40x40 and 40x20. Plus some scatter and groundcover. Most of my existing basing material is for either the dusty Holy Lands or the lush meadows of these fair isles and off the back of this I've completely revamped my Mesoamerican plans, so need something with a bit more of a tropical highlands feel.

I also realised when I sat down to have a go at basing the crusaders yesterday with some of the discussed techniques I was a few bases short, and would want to do them all at once for consistency. Ah well, now that I'm reinvigorated with the Aztecs I'll have plenty of painting to do on them while awaiting basing.
Logged

mmcv
Brigadier
*
Posts: 2163


WWW
« Reply #13 on: 26 April 2020, 12:03:37 AM »

Did a bit if experimenting with basing some eagle and jaguar warriors.

Tried out two slightly different techniques:

1) as suggested by others, mix PVA with brown paint, spread thickly on the base. Add figures and cover with sand/flock.

2) as above but mixed some sand in with the paint and PVA before spreading it on and adding the figures.

1 worked quite well, the figures seem well adhered and coverage was decent, though I did have to come back and do a bit if touchup and another layer as the basing material didn't come up to the level of the bases. I tried 2 to see if additional materials in the base layer would improve the level with the bases. It did but also reduced adhesion with the bases when I checked them dried there, so going to need to use some additional superglue to hold them in. I suspect the grittiness of the sand prevented a smooth adhesion. May experiment with something smoother mixed in to thicken, like the polyfilla suggestion, or some of the modelling paste I've been using for some of my individual figure bases.

Will try and get some pictures up tomorrow.
Logged

fred.
Lieutenant General
*
Posts: 5685



WWW
« Reply #14 on: 26 April 2020, 09:17:12 AM »

With your option 2 I think you will have problems with sand getting under the figures bases, which will stop them sticking well.

With option 1 I tend to careful add a bit of the PVA/paint mix to the edges, and any largish flat top areas of the base (avoiding the feet). The style of cast figure base does vary between ranges, some are quite thin, slope up and can be textured. Others can be a bit thicker and have a much squarer edge, these are harder to hide the edges in the basing material.
Logged

2011 Painting Competition - Winner!
2012 Painting Competition - 2 x Runner-Up!
2016 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2017 Paint-Off - 3 x Winner!
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!