Peninsular War flags

Started by TinyTinTroops, 04 April 2020, 08:39:41 PM

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TinyTinTroops

Hi folks

It's me, Tony of Tiny Tin Troops, again with some requests for help on flags. Leon & Dave want some flags to go with the Peninsular range when it comes out and I'm running into some confusion over the Portuguese flags. I thought that I'd sorted it and then I found more 'opinions' on the subject that contradict others so I'm after someone who knows a bit about this subject or has access to some sources I haven't got. I'm OK for the British flags and haven't done much research yet on the Spanish ones but, so far, the general trend is that only a limited amount is known - I'll ask here again when I get to those but some hints on a comprehensive internet source would be good for now.

I have the basic design but details of it seem to be different between sources (Osprey 115, Keith Over's Flags & standards of the NW & some notes of the napoleon series website about flags captured by the French). Specifically I'd like to know answers to the following :

Was the regimental number in Roman numerals or in Arabic ?

In what ways did the design change in 1806, from that in 1799 when John took over as regent

Were there more changes in 1813-14 ?

When was the lettering around the central arms added - or was it always there ?

Any help, hints or possible sources would be much appreciated.

Tony of TTT


Tony Hughes of Tiny Tin Troops

2016 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

sultanbev

If you can get Rawkins ebook or CD The Army of Portugal 1793-1814
http://www.thehistorybookman.webeden.co.uk/

It has the best chapter I've seen on Portuguese flags with several illustrations and a full table of regimental distinctions.
There was change in 1814, yes.
The regimental numbers appear in Arabic apart from the 6th and 9th Regiment which had Roman numerals.
The lettering around the centre arms on the Royal flag was introduced in 1814.
Looking at the prints in the book, the scroll size changed between the 1799 and 1806 regulations, it being longer across the field in the 1806 flag.

Cavalry flags are also covered in the book at the end of the cavalry chapter.

Mark

Leon

Someone on Twitter replied as well, with Osprey's 'Flags of the Napoleonic Wars (3)'.
www.pendraken.co.uk - Now home to over 7000 products, including 4500 items for 10mm wargaming, plus MDF bases, Battlescale buildings, I-94 decals, Litko Gaming Aids, Militia Miniatures, Raiden Miniatures 1/285th aircraft, Red Vectors MDF products, Vallejo paints and much, much more!

TinyTinTroops

Thanks Mark

I've come across those booklets mentioned before but wasn't aware they dealt with flags too - few uniform books do.

Leon - got that & it is OK but disagrees with other sources, hence the confusion.

I've been told by some to go with Osprey because they are reliable and thoroughly researched. When it comes to flags I have found by experience that this is not always so. They are an excellent starting point but I always check with at least one other source, more if I can get them.

Ordered the E-book so I'll see if it answers the questions - bodes well.

Thanks guys

Tony of TTT
Tony Hughes of Tiny Tin Troops

2016 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

John Cook

Hi Tony,

As far as I know, only two colours survive intact, the Royal and Regimental of 23rd Regiment. 

Q1.  Was the regimental number in Roman or Arabic numerals. 

The text of the regulations does not seem to specify but I tend towards Roman numerals for the 1806 colours and this is why.  The scrap of material in the Musee de l'armee from the colour of 13th has the special salutation on its scroll "AO VALOR DO REGIMENTO NO XIII", which was unique to 3rd,4th, 6th, 13th, 18th and 19th regiments.  The pair of colours of 23rd Regiment in the possession of the Massena family also have Roman numerals.  This is the only contemporary evidence I know of. 

There are a number of reproductions of infantry colours, mainly regimentals, in the Museu Militar de Bussaco and Museu Municipal in Torres Vedras, which date from the Busaco anniversary in 1910, namely of 8th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 19th and 24th regiments. 

The regimental numbers are Arabic numerals, except that of 19th, which is in Roman.  Their accuracy is uncertain but I suspect that these reproductions are the source of modern secondary interpretations.     

So, based on the only primary pieces of evidence, namely the piece of a colour of 13th and the pair of colours from 23rd Regiment, I would say Roman numerals were used. 

Q2.  In what way did the design change in 1806, from that in 1799 when John took over as regent.

The earlier colours were replaced by the 1806 colours and weren't used during the Peninsular War.  The design of the earlier colours was similar to those of 1806.

Q3.   Were there more changes in 1813-14? 

Yes, but the changes only affected 9th, 11th, 21st and 23rd Regiments which were granted new colours in November 1813 in recognition of their conduct at Vitoria.  They were of the same design as the 1806 Pattern with the addition of salutation on a circular white ground, disposed around the central arms. It is unclear when these colours were actually presented, or if they were used during the Peninsular War.  The regimental number appears to have been in Roman numerals on these new presentations.  There were no further changes in 1814

Q4.  Was the lettering around the central arms added – or was it always there?

This only applied to the new 1813 colours of 9th, 11th, 21st and 23rd Regiments.  See Q3 above.

Hope this helps. 

TinyTinTroops

Mark

Got a copy as you suggested and it gives me what I needed - a timeline of the development & changes as well as some possible indications of deviations from the accepted norms.

Thanks for suggesting that, really saved me some effort to have it all in one place.

Hi John

Most of that matches what I have found in the Rawkins e-book. One exception being the form of the numerals on the 1806 flags - he says all Arabic except for 6th.

I do not have a suitably clear image of the 24th regiment's flags to be sure that the monogram is definitely JPR but that seems likely. It is implied elsewhere that flags issued between 1801 & 1806 replace regimental names with Roman numerals but I have doubts about that as the new numbering system seems to date from the army reforms of 1805/6.

The two other captures (along with the 24th) do show the MR monogram. This shows that at least some flags from earlier times were still in use, at least in the Militia regiments. I'd put money on it being impossible to find out which ones though and no sources mention any of the Line regiments using older colours.

If I'm to recreate these flags, even with the best info available, it looks like I'm going to have to do some guessing. It won't be the first time I've had to do that.

Thanks for that very clear summary, very much appreciated.

Tony of TTT

Tony Hughes of Tiny Tin Troops

2016 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

John Cook

Hi,

I made a mistake in that the two 1806 colours that survive intact, are the Royal and Regimental of 24rd Regiment, not 23rd.  The sketch made by the French vexillologist Pierre Charrie, when I don't know, clearly shows XXIV.  They were taken in 1810 and retained by the Massena family.  The monogram is JPR, as you'd expect.  This is the pattern I go for as far as most of the line regiments are concerned, exceptions being 3rd,4th, 6th, 13th, 18th and 19th regiments which have the "AO VALOR DO REGIMENTO NO ....", salutation.

I'm curious to know where Rawkin's got the information that 6th was unique in having Roman numerals.  We know for certain that 13th had Roman numerals (like 6th also an "AO VALOR....." regiment), and almost certain, unless Charrie made a monumental blunder in his sketches of both flags, which seems unlikely, that 24th had Roman numerals too.  Of course, it is always possible that there were variations but that would be speculation, I think.   

Anyway, have you seen this link?    https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/organization/c_portflags.html   This has some images of the reproductions dating from 1910 the accuracy of which has been questioned. 

I can't comment on pre-1806 colours and, similarly, I can't add to Luis Sorando's (Napoleon Series) renditions of the two militia flags which are also found in Rawkin's e-book.     

If you think Portuguese colours are hard to fathom, lots of luck when you start on the Spanish provincial armies and new units raised by the juntas.

TinyTinTroops

Hi John

I had seen that article, it was largely that which made me question the solutions offered in the Osprey & Over. It really turns out they have oversimplified some bits of the story and left out the reasoning, neither unusual nor, in their context, unreasonable.

Having now looked at the cavalry I think I will revert to my original and go with the Roman numerals (even if only to be consistent) except for the AO VALOR regiments.

Thanks for the help

Tony of Tiny Tin Troops
Tony Hughes of Tiny Tin Troops

2016 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!