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Author Topic: Medieval Vietnamese?  (Read 385 times)
mad lemmey
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« on: 13 January 2020, 05:56:30 PM »

I've been asked, as part of a potential commission, if anyone does Vietnamese for around 1280CE?
So far I've drawn a complete blank...
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Orcs
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« Reply #1 on: 13 January 2020, 08:02:04 PM »

I've been asked, as part of a potential commission, if anyone does Vietnamese for around 1280CE?
So far I've drawn a complete blank...

What scale?
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mad lemmey
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« Reply #2 on: 13 January 2020, 09:37:44 PM »

15mm
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Big Insect
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« Reply #3 on: 13 January 2020, 10:07:11 PM »

Not that I am aware of, if your client is referring to the Norther Vietnamese kingdom (rather than the south - which is Champa)?

Irregular Miniatures do Khmer, Champa, Thai/Siamese and Burmese - all in 15mm - but none are suitable. In fact the Northern Vietnamese are quite distinctively different.

I think there are some quite nice palace wall painting (not that I have been able to find any images on-line) showing mixed units of uniformed spear & large shield armed infantry, followed by crossbowmen, these are supported by irregular troops with shorter spears and small round shields and foot archers (bows or crossbows). Regular troops look a lot like Sung Chinese but no armour or helmets. Irregular troops are mainly in local short-sleeved T shirt type tunics and loin-cloths, with cloth headbands.

I think there is supposed to be Cavalry but not much (but it would be spear or sword armed) - horses don't generally do well in Indochina (too hot & humid).
There were 4 horse chariots earlier (but not by that period & never very many) and Elephants with 2 or 3 man crews (including the mahout) but no howdahs (or just the local platform howdah like Khmer), but again not as many as Khmer or Burmese and certainly not as many as in Lao Kingdom armies - which were very heavily dominated by Elephants supported by lots of fierce irregular tribal troops.

Not much help with regards to the figures. Sorry.
I think Falcon made some S.E.Asian 15mm figures that might have done ok for the irregular types but I don't think you can get them any more, certainly not in the UK anyway.

Mark





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GrumpyOldMan
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« Reply #4 on: 13 January 2020, 10:45:35 PM »

15mm

Hello

No Vietnamese figures as such but for proxies in 15mm:--

Outpost do Burmese and Khmer.

http://www.outpostwargameservices.co.uk/

Khurasan do Siamese:-

http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/siamese.html

Magister Militum do Burmese:-

https://www.magistermilitum.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=burmese

HAW (Hall of Ancient Warriors - Australia) do Burmese and Khmer:-

http://www.hallofancientwarriors.com/HTML_pages/haw_main.html

Grumpy figures from Eureka Miniatures - Australia:-

http://www.eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=329_330_334&sort=3a
http://www.eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=329_330_332&sort=3a
http://www.eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=329_330_335&sort=3a

Nan Chao from Eureka Miniatures:-

http://www.eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=87_102_843&sort=3a

(Note - Just a disclaimer I sculpted the Burmese for HAW and the Grumpy ranges are mine.)

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan
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mad lemmey
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« Reply #5 on: 13 January 2020, 10:57:28 PM »

Superb, thank you
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paulr
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« Reply #6 on: 14 January 2020, 01:08:59 AM »

...
(Note - Just a disclaimer I sculpted the Burmese for HAW and the Grumpy ranges are mine.)
...

And very nice they look  Thumbs up Applause Thumbs up
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FierceKitty
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« Reply #7 on: 14 January 2020, 02:22:58 AM »

Chinese influence is very strong. In fact, Hanoi struck me as a better place to get a Chinese feel than Suzhou in most regards.
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Big Insect
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« Reply #8 on: 14 January 2020, 03:17:24 PM »

I think the Burmese and Thai/Siamese are the least likely to be usable as they are so very distinctive (the beaded head-dresses for the Thai and sugar-loaf hats/helms for the Burmese. However, a lot of the Khmer irregulars will do fine as Vietnamese tribal troops.

I don't have a copy, but I wonder if anybody has one of the old Armies and Enemies of China WRG books - there might be some illustrations of Vietnamese forces in that possibly.

Happy Hunting

Mark
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ianrs54
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« Reply #9 on: 14 January 2020, 04:33:38 PM »

I have it - there is a mention but no piccies of them. It does say that they could be 100% LI if thats any help.
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« Reply #10 on: 14 January 2020, 09:51:17 PM »

There is a 'theory' (one train of thinking anyway) that one of the allied contingent on the Khmer Bayon wall carvings are actually Vietnamese troops.

The current Cambodians say they are Chinese, but as they have an Elephant in the contingent (NB: each contingent has one-elephant, a few cavalry, and a number of spear, sword or bow armed infantry - it's a symbolic representation) I think it is unlikely that they are Chinese (possibly some sort of southern Chinese/Hunnan type contingent at best).
Personally having studied the reliefs, I don't think the features look Chinese (or like the way that the Khmer carvings portray Chinese ethnic features - as shown in the trading and city scenes). 

The troops have no armour or helmets, they have thigh-length, cross-over heavily embroidered tunics (with short sleeves) similar to Khmer city/regular troops, and loin cloths. The thing that is really distinctive is the hair pieces that are really elaborate. The infantry with spears and swords have long curved shields (which is again why I am not convinced they are Chinese).  The elephant rider has a bow and much more elaborate tunic and a longer over tunic. All the infantry - some of which are bow armed - are bar foot, as are the very few cavalry riders - who are shield-less and armed with long thin slashing swords.

If you drop me a personal message Lemmey, with your email address, I'll send you some of my photos from my research expedition to Cambodia c.10 years ago.
NB: for various technical reasons I struggle to put up photos on the forum.

It might be that using some of the Essex Miniatures Chinese levy/peasant infantry [CHO 15/16/17/18)  armed with the separate long Khmer-type shields you can buy from Outpost Miniatures, you can recreate the base Vietnamese infantry. You could probably adapt the Essex Indian Elephant MEPA37. Or try the Outpost Khmer elephant and crew.

Cheers
Mark
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GrumpyOldMan
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« Reply #11 on: 14 January 2020, 10:49:32 PM »

Hi

There is one scrappy illustration in WRG book and a short description. The shield mentioned in the description is a large rectangular Korean type. Pictures of relevant scans attached.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan
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FierceKitty
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« Reply #12 on: 15 January 2020, 01:02:53 AM »

I gave that book away within a week of getting it. The recipient isn't speaking to me any more either!
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« Reply #13 on: 15 January 2020, 12:17:20 PM »

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy I did likewise - many, many, many years ago!

I've also looked at the Wargames Foundry S.E.Asian book to see if there are any inspiration there - despite the fact that that is C19th focused - but to no avail.
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