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Author Topic: Irregular Wars "Stuff"  (Read 4807 times)
steve_holmes_11
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« on: 08 January 2020, 05:33:17 PM »

Advance warning - this will be a rambling dialogue rather than a straightworward "Can I have a grenadier with a felling axe" type post.

I've the past year Ive become interested in  Nicholas Wright's "Irregular Wars": http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/p/irregular-wars-conflict-at-worlds-end.html

The setting is what I'd describe as proto colonial.
The lands on the fringes of the European world during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

Europeans will feature as traders, raiders, conquerors and colonists.
The locals are drawn form Ireland, Africa, the Americas and Caribbean, India, The East Indies, The Central Asian steppe, The Far East ...

After some thought I've settled on 10mm as the ideal scale for the game.
Some of the models like artillery, elephants and wagons are simply too bulky  for the standard 30mm square bases in 15mm, and my table won't accommodate a great expansion.

After a bit of a grub through the interesting lists, and the Pendraken catalogue, I concluded that "This is almost possible".
Most European expeditions or colonists forces can be drawn form the Renaissance ranges.
Big salute here for the recent Irish releases that fill a lot of gaps.

Some parts of the world are well catered: Aztecs or Ottomans - no problem at all.
Others are vaguely possible with some imaginative proxying - Zulus, or Ansar for example for the warriors in a tribal African force; Mongols for central Asian horsemen.
The recent Mutiny releases supply a number of casts that would convert nicely as lighter indian troops, while heavier ottoman cavalry might pass as Mughal cavalry.

Some lists require some extreme imagination to cobble a fighting force together.
A pick and mix form Aztec, Plains Wars and French and Indian ranges might cover some of the North American natives (if you don't look too hard).
There are also a few lower class troops form the Ancients era who'd stand in as generic "man with pointed stick" or "man with pointed stick and horse".
Alas a lot of ancient warriors opted to protect their noggin with distinctive headgear, which rather limits re-cycling potential.


By this point I know you're thinking "Just tell me what you want" (what you really really .. [ That's enough lyrics - Ed.])

I'm not sure yet, matching up 48 army lists with a catalogue of several thousand items takes a bit of time.
So rather than posting a list of 10 things I want starting with a Hawaiaan Kahuna Priest through headhunters with blowpipes and concluding with Manchu light artillery.
I through it best to ask a couple of questions first.


1. Is anybody else here interested in these rules (Can you share your army building experiences).

2. Can you tolerate me slowly building up a list of "Wouldn't it be nice ifs".


Ta

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paulr
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« Reply #1 on: 08 January 2020, 06:16:59 PM »

Quote
1. Is anybody else here interested in these rules (Can you share your army building experiences).
Not interested in these rules

Quote
2. Can you tolerate me slowly building up a list of "Wouldn't it be nice ifs".
This would be 'fun' to watch Wink
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Raider4
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« Reply #2 on: 08 January 2020, 06:20:04 PM »

Europeans will feature as traders, raiders, conquerors and colonists.
The locals are drawn form Ireland . . .

So, you don't count Ireland as part of Europe?
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FierceKitty
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« Reply #3 on: 08 January 2020, 07:17:32 PM »

Is form really a preposition?
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fred.
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« Reply #4 on: 08 January 2020, 08:08:04 PM »


1. Is anybody else here interested in these rules (Can you share your army building experiencs).

2. Can you tolerate me slowly building up a list of "Wouldn't it be nice ifs".


Hi Steve, these are a great set of rules, and the army lists constantly make me want to build more forces - not least because the armies seem pretty accessible, typically with 7 troop choices and 1-4 bases of each. But then each list probably has twice that many options to choose from.

I have played various lists, with varying degrees of proxying...

We play with 40mm bases, as we had already moved onto this size from WM 40x20mm bases, for our 10mm armies. We also use 5cm as the base unit of measure, just to make the multiplying from the base  Unit of measurement in the game easier. And frankly I want stuff to move 20, 25 or 30cm, not 16, 20 or 24cm.

Some of my lists have included:
Imperialists - using lots of WM Empire figures, Pendraken Landskneckts, and some poles for the more eastern troops.
Polish - Lithuaninan union - using the Polish Pendraken figures
Steppe Kanate - using Mongols
Safiavids - Using TB Line Arabs and Pendraken Ottomans
Araibians - Again TB Line Arabs
Mogul - this was proxied using Goblins, when we were trying the rules out for Fantasy use...
Meso American - I have Tsuba miniatures figures for this (along with Spanish) but discovered they are 12mm + sized which was a bit annoying.

Royal English - Pendraken Elizabethans, some Warmonger ones
Northern English - as above, with dogs
Low Land Scots - Pendraken Elizabethans, ECW,  Early 16th C Scots, Jacobite Scots
Highland Scots -
Mere Irish - lots of good new figures here as you mention

I'm not trying to build all 48 lists - but admire you for trying. As you say Native Americans and Africans are probably the biggest holes. A few European figures to fit the volunteer / adventurer gap would be good. Thinking good clothes, some armour, morions, pistols and other firearms, some swords

I am fancying some Samurai lists for IRW so looking forward to the updated ranges coming out from Pendraken for them
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steve_holmes_11
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« Reply #5 on: 08 January 2020, 10:05:40 PM »

So, you don't count Ireland as part of Europe?


Take it up with Starkey if you want to argue historicals definitions.
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steve_holmes_11
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« Reply #6 on: 08 January 2020, 10:19:32 PM »

Hi Steve, these are a great set of rules, and the army lists constantly make me want to build more forces - not least because the armies seem pretty accessible, typically with 7 troop choices and 1-4 bases of each. But then each list probably has twice that many options to choose from.

I have played various lists, with varying degrees of proxying...

We play with 40mm bases, as we had already moved onto this size from WM 40x20mm bases, for our 10mm armies. We also use 5cm as the base unit of measure, just to make the multiplying from the base  Unit of measurement in the game easier. And frankly I want stuff to move 20, 25 or 30cm, not 16, 20 or 24cm.

Some of my lists have included:
Imperialists - using lots of WM Empire figures, Pendraken Landskneckts, and some poles for the more eastern troops.
Polish - Lithuaninan union - using the Polish Pendraken figures
Steppe Kanate - using Mongols
Safiavids - Using TB Line Arabs and Pendraken Ottomans
Araibians - Again TB Line Arabs
Mogul - this was proxied using Goblins, when we were trying the rules out for Fantasy use...
Meso American - I have Tsuba miniatures figures for this (along with Spanish) but discovered they are 12mm + sized which was a bit annoying.

Royal English - Pendraken Elizabethans, some Warmonger ones
Northern English - as above, with dogs
Low Land Scots - Pendraken Elizabethans, ECW,  Early 16th C Scots, Jacobite Scots
Highland Scots -
Mere Irish - lots of good new figures here as you mention

I'm not trying to build all 48 lists - but admire you for trying. As you say Native Americans and Africans are probably the biggest holes. A few European figures to fit the volunteer / adventurer gap would be good. Thinking good clothes, some armour, morions, pistols and other firearms, some swords

I am fancying some Samurai lists for IRW so looking forward to the updated ranges coming out from Pendraken for them


Thanks for the pointers Fred.
I certainly won't be building all the lists.

My interest lies in and around the Indian Ocean and the Adjoining Pacific.
That implies Portuguese and Hollanders as the early explorers, with Spanish, English and French arriving later.

Home terrain might include East Africa, Gulf States, India, East Indies, Ming or Manchu in China. Possibly Japan and Korea.

Like any gamer, I'm willing to switch geography if it simplifies getting troops on the table.
Than I remember i'd promised no figure purchases in 2020 - Hmm, was than no purchases, or a few...
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fred.
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« Reply #7 on: 08 January 2020, 10:33:12 PM »

You'll be fine, the forces don't need that many figures, especially if you go with 30mm basing.

I've gone with around 3x resolve for the number of infantry on a base, with 30mm basing, you would perhaps need around 2x resolve, or perhaps slightly fewer figures per base, which should require fairly few figures.

I've not really thought about those areas - but can see how they could be difficult to get figures for. I've done a map (I think the one from the rulebook cover) with all the various lists put where they 'live' mainly so that I could see who was a likely opponent for each other. I'll dig this out and post it.
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sultanbev
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« Reply #8 on: 08 January 2020, 10:48:51 PM »

For your Gulf states, 16th century Omanis and assorted kingdoms in the horn of Africa have similar wild hair to Hedendowa, so 19th colonial "fuzzy-wuzzies" would do, although you'd need some with matchlocks, and even a field gun or two. I've used them in 15mm for my Omani Napoleonic army.
It's probably what you've called the Arabian list looking at the contents on the link you provided.

The Omanis had cavalry and camelry too, so it's a good excuse for Pendraken to complete their 1880s Sudan range and make fuzzy-wuzzy matchlock men, and spear/sword armed cavalry and camelry. Item SC19 Madhist armoured cavalry would be good for any sultan's bodyguard cavalry unit. The Omanis often had Baluchi mercenaries, which just look like ragtag Afghans, which the 1890s NW Frontier range provide for the matchlockmen and command - for spearmen MUT6 spear armed figure would be fine. Talking of which, I need to request some Afghan tribesmen armed with spears, which then extends the existing 1880s ones back to 1790s and probably earlier.

Mark
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steve_holmes_11
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« Reply #9 on: 09 January 2020, 11:03:39 PM »

Off at a tangent, but interesting that you mentioned Goblins as proxies..

My initial toe in the water around exploration and the Indian ocean involved Dragon Rampant - with warbands having options on some of their local myths and legends.
After drawing up 15 - 18 lists, and painting the first four I figured I'd require a proxy for all the more obscure or less civic cultures.
This the UGOH (Universal Goblin Orc Horde) was born.
  You want Golden Horde, we have Golden Horde - but they ride on wolves.
  Ayuthayya Siam? we have those too, but they're a bit green.
 

Hi Steve, these are a great set of rules, and the army lists constantly make me want to build more forces - not least because the armies seem pretty accessible, typically with 7 troop choices and 1-4 bases of each. But then each list probably has twice that many options to choose from.

I have played various lists, with varying degrees of proxying...

We play with 40mm bases, as we had already moved onto this size from WM 40x20mm bases, for our 10mm armies. We also use 5cm as the base unit of measure, just to make the multiplying from the base  Unit of measurement in the game easier. And frankly I want stuff to move 20, 25 or 30cm, not 16, 20 or 24cm.

Some of my lists have included:
Imperialists - using lots of WM Empire figures, Pendraken Landskneckts, and some poles for the more eastern troops.
Polish - Lithuaninan union - using the Polish Pendraken figures
Steppe Kanate - using Mongols
Safiavids - Using TB Line Arabs and Pendraken Ottomans
Araibians - Again TB Line Arabs
Mogul - this was proxied using Goblins, when we were trying the rules out for Fantasy use...
Meso American - I have Tsuba miniatures figures for this (along with Spanish) but discovered they are 12mm + sized which was a bit annoying.

Royal English - Pendraken Elizabethans, some Warmonger ones
Northern English - as above, with dogs
Low Land Scots - Pendraken Elizabethans, ECW,  Early 16th C Scots, Jacobite Scots
Highland Scots -
Mere Irish - lots of good new figures here as you mention

I'm not trying to build all 48 lists - but admire you for trying. As you say Native Americans and Africans are probably the biggest holes. A few European figures to fit the volunteer / adventurer gap would be good. Thinking good clothes, some armour, morions, pistols and other firearms, some swords

I am fancying some Samurai lists for IRW so looking forward to the updated ranges coming out from Pendraken for them

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steve_holmes_11
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« Reply #10 on: 09 January 2020, 11:08:36 PM »

For your Gulf states, 16th century Omanis and assorted kingdoms in the horn of Africa have similar wild hair to Hedendowa, so 19th colonial "fuzzy-wuzzies" would do, although you'd need some with matchlocks, and even a field gun or two. I've used them in 15mm for my Omani Napoleonic army.
It's probably what you've called the Arabian list looking at the contents on the link you provided.

The Omanis had cavalry and camelry too, so it's a good excuse for Pendraken to complete their 1880s Sudan range and make fuzzy-wuzzy matchlock men, and spear/sword armed cavalry and camelry. Item SC19 Madhist armoured cavalry would be good for any sultan's bodyguard cavalry unit. The Omanis often had Baluchi mercenaries, which just look like ragtag Afghans, which the 1890s NW Frontier range provide for the matchlockmen and command - for spearmen MUT6 spear armed figure would be fine. Talking of which, I need to request some Afghan tribesmen armed with spears, which then extends the existing 1880s ones back to 1790s and probably earlier.

Mark

I'm hoping that "a long gun is a long gun" in 10mm.
My eyesight has seen better days, so a chap with crazy hair pointing an enfield is barely distinguishable from the great^15 Grandpa wielding a matchlock.
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steve_holmes_11
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« Reply #11 on: 09 January 2020, 11:14:05 PM »

I'm still undecided on base size.
A brief measuring expedition sows that I could accommodate 30mm square or 40mm square.

I use 16" square pizza boxes for storage.
Allowing a bit of gappage, 30mm square could accommodate 144 stands, while 40mm square cuts that to 81.

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Steve J
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« Reply #12 on: 10 January 2020, 06:29:13 AM »

Quote
My eyesight has seen better days, so a chap with crazy hair pointing an enfield is barely distinguishable from the great^15 Grandpa wielding a matchlock.

When on the table and in a game, I honestly couldn't tell what they are armed with, so this solution works well for me!
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fred.
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« Reply #13 on: 10 January 2020, 09:43:36 AM »

I suppose with bases, it really comes down to how many figures you want to buy and paint. 40mm square is pretty much double the the area of a 30mm square base (16 vs 9) so with 30mm bases you need about half as many figures, and you can play in a smaller area. The downside is that distances become more critical and an accidental nudge can cause problems. Also with bigger bases they look more like a unit.

Most of my 10mm Pre 1850s is on 40mm squares, but for Colonial and WWI I have used 30mm squares and for WWII I've gone with 50x30mm rectangles - which I suspect doesn't help you at all. Probably worth putting a few sample units together on the different size bases and seeing what they look like.

And doing some maths on how many figures you would need for the various forces, which might determine which way you go due to the effort to paint up the larger units.
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fred.
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« Reply #14 on: 10 January 2020, 09:44:59 AM »

Off at a tangent, but interesting that you mentioned Goblins as proxies..

My initial toe in the water around exploration and the Indian ocean involved Dragon Rampant - with warbands having options on some of their local myths and legends.
After drawing up 15 - 18 lists, and painting the first four I figured I'd require a proxy for all the more obscure or less civic cultures.
This the UGOH (Universal Goblin Orc Horde) was born.
  You want Golden Horde, we have Golden Horde - but they ride on wolves.
  Ayuthayya Siam? we have those too, but they're a bit green.
 


A good approach!

I've found Lizardmen useful for this too, particularly in Colonial eras.
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