Visibility

Started by T13A, 06 January 2020, 10:59:32 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

T13A

Hi

Still trying to get my head around the visibility rules (i.e. who can see what and when).

In the section on High Area Terrain on page 14 the rules say that line of sight is limited to 5cm when the opposing units both have low profiles or one of them has a average profile (obviously in high area. terrain). Fine, that's clear. However under Concealed Troops on page 15 it says that concealed troops can only be seen when: An enemy unit is within 10cm of troops with a Low profile or 20cm of troops with an Average profile, which seems to contradict the bit under High Area Terrain.

So two questions:

Is there a contradiction a contradiction in the rules as written?

And if not, could someone kindly explain to me at what distance a unit that is high area terrain can be seen by an enemy unit?

Sincere apologies if I'm missing something obvious with this one but this is one area of the rules I have always (back to BKC II) had difficulty understanding and was really hoping that the later versions would clarify for me.  :(

Thanks for any help.

Cheers Paul
T13A Out!

Big Insect

06 January 2020, 12:54:04 PM #1 Last Edit: 06 January 2020, 01:01:22 PM by Big Insect
OK - here goes.

I think the bit that is confusing is that Concealed troops are those that are deliberately trying to hide themselves and are trying to be as invisible possible (moving carefully and cautiously, making best use of the cover), but that the 10cm/20cm restriction only applies in non-High Area terrain. e.g. Infantry moving in area terrain such as crops like corn (for example) or along a hedge-line, for example.

The High Area definition overrides the Concealed definition (as it is more restrictive), when the troops are in High Area Terrain.

In Open Terrain, visibility is unrestricted, other than when troops are Dug-in or through Smoke. The moment you get a hedge-line (linear obstacle) or a field of crops (low area terrain), visibility (the ability to spot enemy units) can potentially be impaired.

Does that make sense?

The issues with visibility in the game is challenging, as a single stand of Infantry (for example) is a relatively large number of troops on the ground - so saying that they cannot be seen along a hedge-line at all is not really true in practice. There is also an element of 'game-play-mechanism' here - in that it shouldn't be impossible to spot an enemy unit using terrain to creep closer to your troops. I played a fair bit of Cross-fire in my youth and whilst I always enjoyed the game, the idea that you could move from one end of a table to another completely unseen (& unheard) because of intervening terrain (hedges, walls, orchards and woods) gave the game a very odd historical feel.
If anybody has seen the exhaust fumes/smoke kicked out by even a small formation of WW2 armour, plus the sound of engines revving and tracks clanking, you'll get where I am going with this  :)

Hope that helps Paul?

Cheers
Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

T13A

Hi Mark

Many thanks for the speedy reply.

I think it does help but will only really be able to tell for certain when I get troops on the table next!

I would be grateful for an answer to one further question though, again if I am reading the rules correctly, an infantry unit (average profile and not dug-in) can see another infantry unit (again not dug-in) at unlimited distance, when they are both in Low Area Terrain (e.g. crops like corn, and with nothing else in the way)? I'm looking at the paragraph under the heading Low Area Terrain on page 14 where it says, "The distance is unlimited if both the observer and the target have Average profiles". Is that correct?

I do appreciate that the visibility rules are difficult to get right in any WWII/modern ruleset but equally one of the most important aspects of the game IMHO hence looking for clarity. I have never played the Cross-Fire rules myself but have always liked the visibility rules in the 'Battlefront WWII' rules , not sure if you are familiar with them? Regarding exhaust fumes, tracks clanking etc, yes ex. tankie here!

Cheers Paul
T13A Out!

Big Insect

Generally - I like to work on the principle that 2 similar units are Ordinary profile to each other - if that makes sense - as they are the same, neither is Low(er) or Higher than the other.
So, if both units are the same profile as each other, they can see or be seen at the same distance - so two Average units can be seen by each other in area terrain (not High Area terrain) at unlimited distance.

The general argument used in the rules, is that looking up at a silhouetted 'larger' profiled unit/vehicle makes them easier to spot, than looking down 'into' a terrain feature where the silhouette is not clear, escpecially if the unit being looked at (spotted) is Low Profile. Hence why Infantry walking across a cornfield are as easily spotted by other Infantry, as they are both 'head, shoulders and waist' silhouetted against the skyline. 

Whilst we are talking about BKC here, in a funny way, in FWC it is easier as there is a Low, Average and Massive profile option available. So the distinctions are clearer.
It could be argued that a 'Large' profile vehicle might be something we could have put into BKCIV - for some of the really large AFVs - but it was deemed as too complex.

I hope that helps?

Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.