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Author Topic: Question regarding 10mm scale rivers  (Read 964 times)
Paul.B
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« on: 05 November 2019, 12:15:54 PM »

Hello all!

I'm currently working on a modular terrain board for my 10mm scale "Minihammer" armies and I'm at the stage where I'm ready to do some rivers.

In my sketching and planning, I've made them about 3cm wide at the widest point and down to around 2cm at the narrowest. This looks OK, but as I've got things mocked up now I'm wondering if they're a little on the narrow side.

So I was wondering what people think was the optimal width for rivers in 10mm gaming? I am considering doubling the max width to about 6cm but I am not sure. I note that being UK based I am not used to seeing rivers that are as wide as those found elsewhere in the world and that might be throwing off my perception! Cheesy

Cheers,
Paul
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FierceKitty
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« Reply #1 on: 05 November 2019, 12:57:06 PM »

What do you play, when, and where? Crossing the Uji is not the same as crossing the Rubicon.
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ianrs54
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« Reply #2 on: 05 November 2019, 01:20:26 PM »

Or perhaps the Kiel Canal, rivers are very variable. If they are going to be permanent features then build down, otherwise go up. Colour wise they aint blue - having been upside down over the end of St Georges channel on a hazy day it was hard to tell which way up I actually was. Have fun

IanS
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Westmarcher
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« Reply #3 on: 05 November 2019, 01:48:54 PM »

Optimally speaking, not greater than the spans of your 10mm bridges.  Then it's down to personal preference and ground scale for your favourite rules.  My home made river sections are 6 cm wide - but that's because I've yet to get round to adding river banks which will narrow the width(!).* Obviously, real life water courses vary in width, even throughout their length, but 3 cm to 6 cm wide sounds OK to me for most tabletop situations.

* which I might not do anyway because the raised banks will impede and restrict the flexibility of where I wish to locate my bridges on a game to game basis.
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Paul.B
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Posts: 32


« Reply #4 on: 05 November 2019, 02:20:41 PM »

Or perhaps the Kiel Canal, rivers are very variable. If they are going to be permanent features then build down, otherwise go up. Colour wise they aint blue - having been upside down over the end of St Georges channel on a hazy day it was hard to tell which way up I actually was. Have fun

IanS

The board sections are made from interlocking foam tiles, so they'll definitely be permanent and dug down into the tile.

Optimally speaking, not greater than the spans of your 10mm bridges.  Then it's down to personal preference and ground scale for your favourite rules.  My home made river sections are 6 cm wide - but that's because I've yet to get round to adding river banks which will narrow the width(!).* Obviously, real life water courses vary in width, even throughout their length, but 3 cm to 6 cm wide sounds OK to me for most tabletop situations.

* which I might not do anyway because the raised banks will impede and restrict the flexibility of where I wish to locate my bridges on a game to game basis.

Well I was going to make the bridges to fit the rivers rather than the other way around Cheesy

What do you play, when, and where? Crossing the Uji is not the same as crossing the Rubicon.

"Minihammer", which is classic Warhammer fantasy using 10mm scale miniatures with movement and range measurements converted from inches to centimeters - so for example a block of halberdiers in 28mm scale Warhammer might have a movement of 4 inches per turn (8 inch charge), in Minihammer the 10mm scale models would move 4cm.

Being fantasy it doesn't have to be based on anywhere real, of course, but I am just making a generic green countryside at present with hills, rivers, a village and some woodland. I may use it for historicals at some point in the future but nothing planned yet.
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Sandinista
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« Reply #5 on: 05 November 2019, 05:41:22 PM »

4cm - 2cm is what I use, I find anything bigger is too much of a blocking piece, I prefer fordable disruping rivers rather than blocking features.

Cheers
Ian
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Big Insect
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« Reply #6 on: 05 November 2019, 07:55:15 PM »

I agree with Sandinista.

In a funny way it's the bank that really matters - if you cut them deep (almost vertical) they can look wrong, but often that's the way small fast flowing river actually are in real life.
For really big rivers you are almost better having specific drop in sections. But getting the banks to look right is the real trick, especially around curves where they can be low &  sloping on the inward side and steep on the outer edge. Don't forget the sand or gravel banks either.

As to colour - Ian is right. Most of mine are a muddy brown or for shallower rivers or streams I just use clear varnish or heat-melted clear polymer that is specially designed to cool/dry clear. I then ensure there is plenty of gravel and weed in it. It just depends upon how realistic you want it.

I have a frozen river project that I'm about to start with blocks of ice and snow on it. As this is a major feature for a 15mm scale game it is (on average) 6cm wide (between the banks).

Mark
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Orcs
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« Reply #7 on: 05 November 2019, 08:00:47 PM »

Its often not the width , but the depth, speed and current that makes a stream or river impassable.  When I was in New England last year the plae we stayed at had a lovely river about 30 feet across at the end of the garden. It looked like it would be easy to cross to the little beach the other side  

The river was not desperately fast, but the bed was algae covered rocks. This made what looked like a gentle stream very tricky to cross.  It took me  about 5 minutes to get a third of the way across , It then became so treacherous I came back before I slipped and broke a leg  

See the article below, for something similar .

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/bolton-strid

I agree with Ian.  Build down.  You can always say in a scenario - "That stream is impassable, / Easy to cross". Its a bit harder to grasp that 4" wide river is easy to cross - plus it takes up valuable space on the board
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Paul.B
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Posts: 32


« Reply #8 on: 05 November 2019, 08:48:12 PM »

Great! Thanks for the replies, I shall aim to make it no wider than about 4cm and put in some variation on the bank depth  Cheesy
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Raider4
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« Reply #9 on: 05 November 2019, 09:33:52 PM »

Great! Thanks for the replies, I shall aim to make it no wider than about 4cm and put in some variation on the bank depth  Cheesy

Do you want your troops to be able to shoot across or not? That may affect how wide you want to go.
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hammurabi70
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« Reply #10 on: 17 February 2020, 12:45:57 PM »

Great! Thanks for the replies, I shall aim to make it no wider than about 4cm and put in some variation on the bank depth  Cheesy

I think the rivers have to fit the rest of the terrain.
(1) How wide are your roads and what colour?  If they are also muddy brown this could cause some interesting confusion.
(2) What is the ground scale for your rules?

How has the 4cms decision progressed?
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Shedman
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« Reply #11 on: 17 February 2020, 01:09:48 PM »

Do you want your troops to be able to shoot across or not? That may affect how wide you want to go.

That was my first thought

If your troops fire 3 inches and the river is 4 inches then are you happy that they can't fire across it?
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DHautpol
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« Reply #12 on: 29 February 2020, 01:06:01 PM »

Sorry if this is a bit late.

The issue is the same one we encounter with towns, villages and other built up areas (BUAs) i.e. the conflict between "what looks right" v "groundscale".  A BUA of 2-3 houses may not look like a village but its footprint on the table says that it takes up the space that the village actually did.  So too with streams and rivers, we want them to look like proper rivers but we don't want them to dominate. 

My streams and rivers are 10mm and 40mm respectively, routered into MDF terrain squares.  To be honest the streams look a bit like ditches but, depending, on the groundscale being used could represent a width of anywhere between 10-50 yards, with the rivers correspondingly even wider.

This effect has had me wondering whether, when determining the range for artillery on one bank to a target on the otherside, I shouldn't make some sort of adjustment for the river being physically wider than it should be in a scenario context and, therefore, the units are artificially further apart than they are actually meant to be.  At present, trying to make this idea consistent and workable is making my brain ache, so I haven't progressed this thought.
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