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Author Topic: Can "blundered" units still be ordered?  (Read 1548 times)
Dr Dave
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« on: 08 September 2019, 11:36:59 AM »

Looking at p.22 in BKC-4 (p.12 in BKC2) it says that:

1.   “An unsuccessful command roll means that the order was not issued and the command unit may issue no further orders…”

And

2.   “A unit may only receive orders from one command unit in a turn…”

So if a command unit tries and fails (on the 1st attempt) to order a unit, under flexible doctrine, another command unit can step in and try to order the unit since no order was ever issued or received. That’s our understanding and what the wording means?

But what if on the initial attempt the command unit blunders? 1 implies that no order was issued but in some instances the units do move. In others the command unit is affected.

So as the rules are written the HQ goes for a first order, blunders and the unit in question might have to advance towards the nearest visible enemy. According to point 1 above, no order was issued so another command unit could try to order it again.

Is it the case that a blunder does mean that orders were simply badly issued, but still issued and received?
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Raider4
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« Reply #1 on: 08 September 2019, 11:43:06 AM »

I've always played it if HQ 1 tries and fails to orde unit X to move, then HQ 2 can't then try to order unit X.

But reading the above, by the letter, hmmmm . . .
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ianrs54
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« Reply #2 on: 08 September 2019, 11:56:16 AM »

Yes - by a higher level HQ I think !
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #3 on: 08 September 2019, 12:19:30 PM »

Yes - by a higher level HQ I think !

We've always played it as Raider4 says - the turn ends for the HQ and the unit(s).

Ian - where is it in the rules? How does it stack up if the unit(s) moved under the blunder result - do they suffer a -1 for already being (badly) ordered?
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ianrs54
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« Reply #4 on: 08 September 2019, 12:45:41 PM »

Yes you would get the -1, otherwise its just a real bad failure
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Big Insect
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« Reply #5 on: 08 September 2019, 01:16:09 PM »

It all depends upon a number of factors - and this might include the Tactical Doctrine of the army - check the rules section on Tactical Doctrine.

The Basics:
If a unit is being ordered by an HQ and that HQ fails to make the command roll, the unit might be eligible to be issued a new order by another HQ (doesn't have to be higher CV) or the CO. The new HQ ordering the unit cannot have ordered other units previously in the game turn.
If the unit is being ordered by an HQ and that HQ fails to make the command roll and blunders, then the unit cannot be ordered by any other commander.

In a Fixed Formation Game:
If a unit is being ordered by an HQ and that HQ fails to make the command roll, the unit is only eligible to be issued a new order by the CO and then potentially at a command penalty (but again Tac.Doc. has an influence here).
If the unit is being ordered by an HQ and that HQ fails to make the command roll and blunders, then the unit cannot be ordered by any other Commander.

The CV value of the new Command units involved is irrelevant, as is what the unit is being ordered to do.

Thanks
Mark
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Shedman
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« Reply #6 on: 08 September 2019, 01:19:52 PM »

I think that "blundered" units can not be re-ordered as there are some Blunders that directly affect the "blundered" units causing them to move etc

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Dr Dave
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« Reply #7 on: 08 September 2019, 02:29:25 PM »

Thanks all. We've always assumed that the blundering HQ / CO can't issue another order (obviously), but also that the blundered unit(s) can't receive anymore orders as well.

The "loophole" in the wording was spotted yesterday.

We'll stick to playing it as we always have.  Smiley
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Big Insect
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« Reply #8 on: 08 September 2019, 10:21:33 PM »

I can sort of see where you are going with this, but we'll look at the wording & tighten it up.

A unit being ordered by a Commander who rolls a Command blunder cannot be ordered to do anything by any other commander in the same game turn.
That is, and has always been, the intention in the rules (v2 or v4).
« Last Edit: 08 September 2019, 10:26:50 PM by Big Insect » Logged
Big Insect
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« Reply #9 on: 02 January 2020, 08:26:58 PM »

I have now had a chance to look at this further - and also looked at the CWC and FWC wording as well. From these I can now make a clearer decision regarding BKC.

CWC and FWC are clear - when a Commander makes a command blunder, the order fails to get through to the unit. So the unit has not been ordered in the turn the order was attempted.
It is the Commander that has erred not the unit.

  • If the unit had previously received a Command order this game turn and had acted on that order (fired, moved, deployed etc.) it cannot be ordered again in that game turn, by a different Commander following the blunder.
  • If however, the Command blunder occurred on the first attempt by the Commander to order that unit, the unit has not previously been ordered and so can be ordered by another Commander (Co or HQ - assuming we are not playing Fixed Formations) without penalty.

I'll look at tightening this up in the 2nd edition QRF.

Thanks
Mark
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Kiwidave
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« Reply #10 on: 02 January 2020, 10:09:58 PM »

Wouldn't it depend on the nature of the blunder? A 1/3rd of the blunder results have units moving, which you could argue that they have received orders, just really bad ones.  :-

I appreciate that simplest is best though, so what Mark has come up with removes complications.
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T-Square
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« Reply #11 on: 02 January 2020, 10:29:43 PM »

I agree if the blunder has the ordered units move then their turn is over.  They received an order even though it was a bad order.
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paulr
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« Reply #12 on: 02 January 2020, 10:39:46 PM »

Or perhaps misinterpreted the order received...
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Big Insect
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« Reply #13 on: 02 January 2020, 11:58:56 PM »

I agree - however many of the blunders apply to the nearest unit under command - not all the units under command.

I can refine the outcome so that if a unit has moved - for good or ill - it cannot be re-ordered.

Thanks folks

Mark
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