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The revamped Feudal Japanese have been released!
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Author Topic: Russian wish list  (Read 2407 times)
DHautpol
Second Lieutenant
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Posts: 70


« Reply #15 on: 22 June 2020, 02:22:20 PM »

The 1805 shako that preceded the 1812 Kiver shako would be valuable; the "Busch" plume is a must.  Whilst the 1812 shako is usually referred to as the "Kiver", Osprey MAA 185 (Russian Army 1799-1814, Infantry) states that "Kiver" was simply the Russian term for shako.  

It is likely that the majority of units at Borodino were still wearing the 1805 shako, an exception almost certainly being the Guard.  Given the issues the Russian army had with supply, the Osprey suggests that some Russian units were still wearing the 1805 shako in 1814.  This seems very plausible, given that the Pavlov Regiment was still wearing mitres at Friedland and Eylau only because it had not yet received its 1805 shakos.

If you allow for the fact that a new shako was authorised in 1815, resembling the French style 1805 version, it is possible that some Russian units never wore the 1812 version at all.

MAA 185 - Haythornthwaite P. & Hannon P. The Russian Army of the Napoleonic Wars; (1) Infantry, 1799-1814; 1987, Osprey Publishing, 1999 edition.
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Wessexman
Cadet

Posts: 5


« Reply #16 on: 01 July 2020, 11:30:46 AM »

Thanks for welcomes - casualty figures would be even better!

Cheers
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John Cook
Major
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Posts: 645



« Reply #17 on: 04 July 2020, 01:21:14 PM »

The 1805 shako that preceded the 1812 Kiver shako would be valuable; the "Busch" plume is a must.  Whilst the 1812 shako is usually referred to as the "Kiver", Osprey MAA 185 (Russian Army 1799-1814, Infantry) states that "Kiver" was simply the Russian term for shako.  

It is likely that the majority of units at Borodino were still wearing the 1805 shako, an exception almost certainly being the Guard.  Given the issues the Russian army had with supply, the Osprey suggests that some Russian units were still wearing the 1805 shako in 1814.  This seems very plausible, given that the Pavlov Regiment was still wearing mitres at Friedland and Eylau only because it had not yet received its 1805 shakos.

If you allow for the fact that a new shako was authorised in 1815, resembling the French style 1805 version, it is possible that some Russian units never wore the 1812 version at all.

MAA 185 - Haythornthwaite P. & Hannon P. The Russian Army of the Napoleonic Wars; (1) Infantry, 1799-1814; 1987, Osprey Publishing, 1999 edition.

It's even more complicated than that.  According to Viskivatov this is the time-line.

18 August 1803.  Shapki (caps) authorised to replace musketeer hats.  Plain felt cloth 'shako', approximately 20cm high with a lacquered detachable leather visor, chin strap and band to lower rim. 
13 February 1805.  Shapki as authorised for musketeers in 1803 authorised to replace grenadier and fusilier mitre caps.
19 December 1807.  Kiver to replace shapki.  Conical French-style shako similar in size to shapki but with fixed visor, leather bands around top and bottom, and side stiffeners. 
6 December 1809.  Officers to wear the kiver in place of bicorne hat.
11 June 1809. Cords and flounders authorised for kiver.
1 January 1812.  New pattern kiver - coalscuttle style - to replace 1807 kiver.

The date are of the order authorising the change, it is not the date the kit entered service.  Flash to bang time for complete issue seems to have been up to about 18 months.  The 1807 kiver seems to have been in universal use by the time of the 1812 invasion, and the 1812 kiver by all arms from 1814.

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Zippee
Lieutenant Colonel
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« Reply #18 on: 05 July 2020, 08:59:19 AM »

And if we break that down to the principle wars/campaigns, I think we're looking at (I'll retain the hat terminology although its new to me, it is helpful) the following distinct ranges


1805-07 - the 1803 shapki for musketeers, most grenadiers in shapki and busch some in mitre (maybe but as we need Pavlovski we need the figures anyway), officers in bicorne, cylindrical pack and canteen, jager with belly pouch IIRC

I don't think the difference between 1803 shapki and 1807 kiwer or the difference between grenadier/fusilier mitre is readily apparent at this scale, so 1805-07 can be pushed to include any possible intervention in 1809

That equates to Infantry Range #01 'Early War' 1805-09 - jager/musketeer/grenadier (shako)/grenadier (mitre)


1812 - this would be the 1807 kiwer with cords, busch for grenadiers no mitres except Pavlovski, officers in shako, modern backpacks and greatcoats - this can certainly push across 1813 and into 1814

That equates to Infantry Range #02 'Mid War 1810-13 - jager/musketeer/grenadier/Pavlovski in mitre (needs to be a new mitre figure because of backpacks, annoying but necessary)


1814 - the new style 'coalskuttle' kiwer with cords, skinny plumes for grenadiers, Pavlovski in mitre, officers in kiwer, modern backpacks and greatcoats - this can take us right through to 1815

That equates to Infantry Range #03 'Late War' 1814-15 - jager/musketeer/grenadier (Pavlovski from Mid War is still good so no new figure needed)


In reality people should mix and match between Range #02 and #03, although the cynic in me believes that people will plump for range #03 because that's what 'everyone knows' is right for 1812 !!


Then there would be the need for opolchenie, some with muskets, some with pike. Probably a fairly generic greatcoat wrapped option (may need more than one due to backpacks), a casualty figure or two and mounted officers in bicorn, probably good throughout.

Have I missed anything?



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John Cook
Major
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Posts: 645



« Reply #19 on: 05 July 2020, 05:32:40 PM »

Not really.  That about nails it I think.  Here is an expanded list with some key dates added.

18 August 1803.  Shapki (caps) authorised to replace musketeer hats.  
13 February 1805.  Shapki as authorised for musketeers in 1803 authorised to replace grenadier and fusilier mitre caps.
Austerlitz  – 2 December 1805
Eylau –  7 February 1807
Friedland –  14 June 1807
2 December 1806 – Hair to be cut short.
19 December 1807.  Kiver to replace shapki.  Conical (French style) with fixed visor, leather bands around top and bottom, side stiffeners.  
14 July 1808 –    Grenadier kivers authorised brass grenade badges with three flames, fusliers a brass grenade badges with one flame (Musketeers retained the cockade). Round knapsacks replaced by rectangular knapsacks with greatcoat to be worn rolled over left shoulder.  
6 December 1809.  Officers to wear the kiver.
11 June 1809. Cords and flounders authorised.
4 February 1811.  Grenadier and Fusilier thick plumes replaced by new thinner ones.
1 January 1812.  New pattern kiver (coalscuttle style) to replace 1807 kiver.
Borodino – 7 September 1812

I have never seen a real 1805 shapka but the imagery seems to depict something more cylindrical than the 1807 kiver, which has a more conical profile.  There are also shako ornaments to take into account.  I don’t know how much detail could be incorporated but I wouldn’t want the bother of filing down all those 1807 kivers.  I think the grenadier and fusilier mitre are sufficiently different.  Between Austerlitz and Eylau, the Russian soldier also lost his powdered and clubbed hair.

The question of Russian headwear is even more complex than the Austrian and I’ve seen plenty written on the subject, none of which was able to determine exactly who wore what, and when.  It has been suggested that the musketeers of some musketeer regiments were still wearing hats at Austerlitz, which is debateable I think.

Given time taken to issue new kit, it has been argued that many if not all grenadier regiments were still wearing mitres in 1805 (what about the grenadiers in musketeer regiments?).  
I have seen it also argued that, because the Pavlovs were still wearing their mitres in 1807, some other regiments probably hadn’t received the new kivers either.  The answers to these questions are all that, probably, ‘nobody knows’.  Something that seems clear is that the Pavlovs stopped wearing fusilier mitres after 1807 and all their companies wore the grenadier mitre.

My interest is the early Napoleonic – Waterloo leaves me stone-cold, and I’m lukewarm about 1812 and the Wars of Liberation.  So, if a Russian Napoleonic range was to tempt me it would need to be suitable for 1805 through to 1807.  That means French infantry in bicorns as it seems that French procurement was hardly any better than the Russian.

Anyway, on the basis that a picture is worth a thousand words, I’ve attached a scan of line drawings taken from Mark Conrad’s translation of Viskovatov.


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John Cook
Major
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Posts: 645



« Reply #20 on: 06 July 2020, 01:46:17 AM »

Zippee, I forgot to include the change from high boots and breeches to trousers:

23 December 1807 - Breeches to be replaced by winter trousers with leather lower parts and summer trousers of white linen with integral gaiters fastened with covered buttons.  Boots to be replaced by "others with soft tops" (not entirely sure what this means exactly but I take it to mean short boots as opposed to the 14" high boots of 1802).

« Last Edit: 06 July 2020, 02:01:01 AM by John Cook » Logged
Zippee
Lieutenant Colonel
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Posts: 786



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« Reply #21 on: 07 July 2020, 10:31:11 AM »

Useful list and drawings

I think we need to be practical about minor shako differences - a range is a big investment, besides I was talking about pushing the early range to 1809 which is hypothetical at best, hardly worth its own range. People will use what they have for such things.
Again with clubbed hair, we either leave it in for the early range or assume it's dispensed with in campaign, I don't think we can granulise that far, my preference is to leave it in as its another distinguishing feature.
I'd need to see comparisons of mitres to know for sure but maybe that's an additional early range item

Hats in 1805 seems unlikely for the army sent west - possible in sme other inspections. Of course hats were worn on the march by all kinds of troops unofficially so we can't rule it out but need to go with the most likely representative look and that I think is shapki for musketeers

As we need grenadier mitres for Pavlovski in any case we need to include it - whether its used for other regiments is then irrelevant and left to the player/purchaser. Likewise whether the grenadier battalion of a musketeer regiment was in mitre or shapki is largely irrelevant to the figures required for the range. We need grenadier in shapki, grenadier in mitre, musketeer in shapki, jager in shapki and possibly fusilier in mitre - we can mix n match from there.

I find the Pavlovski move to all grenadier mitre as compelling evidence that fusilier mitres had long since disappeared. If not there should have been a surplus of re-usable mitres that the regiment could have acquired. Or maybe the dispensation granted to them specified only grenadier mitres, and therefore being sticklers the fusilier mitres had to go ...

I agree my interest drops markedly post 1809. Quite why the later period is so popular is beyond me the engagements become slug fests with little tactical acumen. Don't get me wrong the strategic qualities displayed in 1814 for instance are highly impressive but the battles are mostly dull. And teh uniforms degenerate into shako and greatcoat, just hasn't got the panache anymore. Still 1812+ is the popular period, and ranges need to account for that - but I am cynical enough that I fear few people will pick up the mid period range.

Trouser/gaiters are a good point - another dividing point between the early and mid era like the packs. Although how apparent the difference will be in 10mm is open to question.
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