Hello

The arrival of the Duchy of Warsaw range got me thinking about Poles.  For those that have bothered, what do people do for Vistula Legion infantry?  In 10mm their uniform would be close to Bardin/Young Guard I guess, but that doesn't seem available. Come to think of it, what do you do for Young Guard?

The cavalry is fine with all the varied lancers/Uhlans on offer. Keen to hear your ideas!

Thus far you can't easily replicate that uniform look - to an extent the Wurttemberg light/jager packs would be close but no drummers or standards and small packs make it a bit pricey.

Best option to get the shako plus kurtka or short-tail 'Spencer' type German uniform coat look would be to use the greatcoated French which isn't so much the kurtka/Specer look as avoiding the problem.

I suspect Napoleonics will be off the boil for a little while now but for sure Young Guard and Spencer (Westphalia, late Saxon, etc) would be nice to have at some point

Frankly we need a more rounded Guard range than we have currently but we also have a need for Russians and Spanish and all sorts in multiple periods so it'll take a while.

Couldn't agree more about the absence of Russians, ideally both early and late.

Thanks for the Wurttemberg Leicht suggestion. I will give that some thought.

Another possibility, depending on the sculpting, would be to trim the Duchy of Warsaw czapka corners and do a paint conversion on the vest, ignoring the cross-belts. Fiddly but might work (at least from a distance!).

Lastly I saw SHD1, which might be another second rate possiblity.

Ah the joys of scavenging...

The entire 1815 range is without suitable French line infantry, let alone Young Guard.  I haven't seen them close up but perhaps something from the 1815 Nassau or Dutch infantry might work for Vistula Legion.  

The Napoleonic period is vast and as a result sections of it will remain absent or incomplete for a long time as far as I can see.

Quote from: Chad on 22 July 2019, 11:45:28 AM
The Napoleonic period is vast and as a result sections of it will remain absent or incomplete for a long time as far as I can see.

Too right comrade Chad! I cheer myself up by accepting that in 10mm many of the details of Napoleonic uniforms will melt away, and as long as I get the major features right, it should do the trick.

This gets problematic when basic uniform features (ie Bardin cut) aren't on offer. But the above suggestions from Zippee and John are just the start I was after. For me an issue will be none have single cross-belts, which can be remedied with a paint conversion, but that means my lazy wash technique needs adjusting... otherwise I will just end up highlighting the cross-belt I am trying to hide...

If you cinfine yourself to the March Attack with arm over chest (Type A I call them), then any sabre belt is pretty much invisible in any case - just need to remove any offending scabbards which is fairly easy - or add a breadbag or similar to hide the evidence. Then I think the Ducth line from the 1815 range may be viable (only seen the online pictures though)

But if you're planning on repurposing Warsaw figures then you shouldn't have that problem anyway.

And the Wurttemberg Leichtes/Jager option have the 'at ready' pose in the firing line that hides the crossbelts as well as the March type A pose

You'd have to draft in standard bearers and officers from elsewhere but I don't see that as a major hurdle - officer uniforms having unique cast isn't unnown. The Dutch are a possibility but no eagle (although I'm failrly certain they weren't issued any as the Legion de la Vistule carried age old Polih Legion flags from the 1790s) and it looks like the officer is wearing a sash instead of epaulettes. You could even use Warsaw versions and keep the czapkas, including drummers as it's not beyond the realms of possiblity. And there are now quite a few bicorn wearing officers available which are always an option.

Thanks for that Zippee, andd btw for having brought about the GDW and Rhinebund ranges.

Having thought about it a bit more it would be crazy of me to conceal the yellow vests of the mighty Vistula Legion - that is why they stand out on the table and why I want to paint them. Trimmed czapkas seem the go, at least for.most of the sculpts.
I should substitute some with A sculpts for variety - possibly even Dutch or Nassau for additional variety.

My crazy 10 year project is to recreate La Grande Armee 1812 in roughly 1:20, and the Russian 1st and 2nd Armies of the West.  I figured that I had some remote chance of Leon replacing the Russian range in that timeframe.  This will be my third attempt. My first two were in larger scales, and far too ambitious...

So I need 8 bttns of the Vistula - leaving aside the 3rd battalions from each regiment which I think Joined the campaign later in 1812. Hence my search for variety.

Loved your suggestion of bicorne officers and czapka drummers etc!

1812 isn't my bag but I have the following info if it helps:

The 1-3 Regiments of the Vistula Legion were withdrawn from service in Spain in early 1812 and reassembled at their depot at Sedan. The 4th regiment remained in Spain until disbanded. On 14 March 1812 Bonaparte announced that the legion was to be transformed into a Polish division with each of the four regiments expanded to three battalions and each to have a regimental artillery company added to the strength. The men for artillery companies were to be found by the regiments with the Officers and NCOs seconded from French artillery regiments.

On 14 March 1812 Bonaparte announced that the legion was to be transformed into a Polish division with each of the four regiments expanded to three battalions and each to have a regimental artillery company added to the strength. The men for artillery companies were to be found by the regiments with the Officers and NCOs seconded from French artillery regiments.

The reformed division was to be renamed "La Légion du Grand Duché de Varsovie" but despite his initial enthusiasm for a Polish division to be attached to the Imperial Guard, the decision was withdrawn by Bonaparte on 5 May. Further when he reviewed the regiments at Poznan on 31 May 1812 Bonaparte directed that the new third battalions should not raise grenadier or voltigeur companies as the recruits were too inexperienced and the battalions remained at Poznan only joining their parent regiments during the beginning of November.

There has always been a difference of opinion as to whether the Polish czapka was officially issued to the Vistula Légion infantry regiments at any point of their history. As far as research for this volume has been able to ascertain the czapka was never a prescribed item of headwear, but the Polish term 'czapka' is used freely to describe any type of military cap or hat during the period. It is however quite probable that some companies raised in 1808 retained the czapkas previously worn as part of the Légion Polacco-Italienne with French cockades and possibly fitted with the regimental sunburst plates. Certainly these seem to have been issued to some musicians and it is possible that czapkas were also retained unofficially by some elite companies for full parade dress in 1809 perhaps even later.

Very little is actually known for certain about the short lived regimental artillery companies, a note in my research file dated July 2013 refers to a reference from Stephen Summerfield stating that the Vistula Légion probably were equipped with Prussian 3pdr. field pieces and the uniforms were probably similar to the regular artillery with handlanger detachments from the regiment.

As the professional artillerists were seconded from French artillery regiments it is likely that they continued to wear a variation of their own uniform, shakos with either the legion sunburst plates or a French lozenge shaped plate embossed with crossed cannon, red trim to the top of the shako and red cords and pompon. Coats would most likely have been of the Bardin design 'Spencer' pattern and dark blue with dark blue collar, lapels, turnbacks and cuffs piped red and all buttons white metal, possibly of the regimental pattern. Breeches would have been dark blue with a line of red piping on the outer seam and overall trousers dark blue with a red stripe. These details are unconfirmed and simply speculation.

The regimental artillery companies were absorbed in the Imperial Guard artillery park in 1812 and did not survive the Russian campaign and no artillery units were re-raised in 1813.

It is difficult to establish exactly which pattern of flag was issued or carried by the battalions of the Légion de la Vistule, no new flags were commissioned upon the legions inception and the four regiments appear to have carried surviving flags of their fore-runner units dating back to 1799 but it is unclear which flags were carried by which battalions. The 1799 Infantry Flag of the 2eme Bataillon of the Legiony Polskie we Włoszech, for example survived the intervening years and was ultimately being carried by the 2nd regiment Vistula Légion in 1812. An edict of 26 January 1809 approved the issue of new flags of French pattern of the same style issued to the other Regiments Étrangère, however this was never approved by Bonaparte and the flags were not issued.

Go to https://www.scribd.com/document/326367084/Le-Plumet-Rigo.  Planche 77 is of relevance in the context of the Vistula Legion's flags.

"The reformed division was to be renamed "La Légion du Grand Duché de Varsovie" but despite his initial enthusiasm for a Polish division to be attached to the Imperial Guard, the decision was withdrawn by Bonaparte on 5 May. Further when he reviewed the regiments at Poznan on 31 May 1812 Bonaparte directed that the new third battalions should not raise grenadier or voltigeur companies as the recruits were too inexperienced and the battalions remained at Poznan only joining their parent regiments during the beginning of November."

It does help thank you - that is presumably why only the 1-2nd battalions appear on the Nafziger OOB for August 1812, my road map for this 10 year project.

Thanks to both of you regarding the 'Czapka' issue: I had heard that they might have been used for musicians but was not aware of how speculative the use of the sunburst-shako was, and that the four cornered Czapka was even considered to have been worn by the Vistula Legion, although that does seem pretty speculative.  Contempory drawings, military equipment issue records and private diaries are I guess the 3 primary sources, and if all 3 strike out on that issue, it seems hard to mount a case.  I also didn't appreciate that Czapka is in fact Polish for headdress, which of course would confuse matters further.  Might stick with sunburst shakos and some Czapka musicians, plus of course, some bicorned officers.

Looking at the new and beautifully done NDW sculpts which I got from the Not-Kickstarter campaign, I am now sceptical as to whether the 4 cornered Czapkas can be rounded - too much of the cords might get lost.  Given the number I need head swaps are not really an option. So back to the drawing board: Dutch, Nassau.  Am leaning towards the Dutch.  The problem with my earlier idea of SHD1 is that they are not march attack...

Even the speculative czapska wearing is restricetd to deployment to Spain.

If worn, how long would they survive? Even accepting a desire to maintain nation identity (which seems very common amonsgt Polish units - look at the legions as demi-brigades in the Caribbean, insisting on wearing full rig to maintain identity) it's hard to justify there would be any serviceable czapkas by the time they were withdrawn in 1812 (except possibly for musicians??). If any did exist the hints are that they were reserved for parade and once back at depot they were rebuilt and resupplied so I just can't believe any of them marched into Russia wearing anything but shakos - I'd accept musicians as flavour and licence and the possibility there was a small stash of elite company czapskas for parade use back at Poznan but that's it really.

A persuasive case for 1812-14 sunburst shakos, with the possibility of a few battered czapkas for elite companies. Given that I recall reading the Poles did not lose a single piece of artillery in the Russian campaign (I assumed regimental pieces excluded) it is possible that that level of.care translated the to other equipment, and some czapkas survived.

Except for musicians, which I am fast learning are the exception to any Napoleonic uniform rule: their czapkas would be a virtual certainty!

I can't find a single credible source that attributes shapskas to the infantry of the Vistula Legion.  Malibran in his massive study of French uniforms says that the uniform prescribed in March 1807 included shakos with the distinctive ray-style plate.  Dempsey in his study of French foreign troops says the same and quotes an eyewitness in Russia who describes the Legion infantry carrying their shakos on the march, rather than wearing them.  
Rigondaud has two plates on the Legion in his Le Plumet series.  Pl 77 deals with the only surviving colour, that of the 2nd Regiment, and the colour bearer, who wears a shako.  Pl 133 describes and illustrates the musicians, all of whom have shakos.
However, when the two-battalion Regiment de la Vistule was raised from the wreckage of the Legion in 1813, the grenadier companies are said to have received shapskas like those of the Vistula Lancers.
I agree with Zippee that the shapska "was never a prescribed item of headwear" for the infantry of the Vistula Legion.  Everything I have points to shakos being worn exclusively from the outset.