Q of the Week: Pearl Harbour?

Started by Leon, 21 December 2010, 07:24:52 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Zbigniew

Pearl Harbour was a key moment of World War two in my opinion. And this importance had nothing to do with US, Great Brittain nor Japan.
The fact is that since Russo-Japanese War Soviet Union kept considerable military force on its Far East borders. This armies were released because of Pearl Harbour
and arrived to fight on Europe East Front in the peak of the carnage. Exactly when they were most needed (Churchill knew about it)
What diplomatic Machiavellian conspiracies caused Pearl Harbour are beyond my knowledge. But I always keep in mind the statistics of German Loses during WW2,
and whatever you say - the Russian steppes depleted Wermaht force and sucked all strenght of it ( Norman Davies estimates loses on Eastern Front at about 80%). Pearl Harbour helped Stalin most, which I say without satisfaction. Allies didnt win WW2 in my opinion. Stalin did (I hate him by the way  ;)
 

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Problem is you have to look at WWII as a series of separate wars :

1) European land war - won by Hitler in 1940
2) Britsih Colonial war - N. Africa - won by us in 1943 -  but continued into Italy
3) Major air war over Europe - won by UK and US in late 44
4) Asiatic War - fought in Russia (I know the Germans didnt reach geographic Asia), won by the Russians as a land camapign.
5) naval war in the Atlantic - won by RN with considerable support, 1943
6) The major Naval war in the Pacific - won by the USN, with considerable hinderance from MacAthur.
7) Land camapiagn in NWE from 6/44 - which couldnt be lost.

Of these 4 and 3 are probably the most important, and have considerable interaction with each other - fighter in the Vaterland cant attack T-34's on the steppes, whilst 5 facilitates both 3 and 4. THe UK went broke (roughly mid 41), didnt ever come near to starvation as it had in 1917.


This is a very complex subject though, and perhapes this isnt the palce to discuss the full ramifcations


IanS
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Luddite

23 December 2010, 07:21:41 PM #17 Last Edit: 23 December 2010, 07:23:20 PM by Luddite
Somantics perhaps, but aren't those different theatres in the same war, rather than 'different wars'?

I take the opposite view on that one really and think the Franco-Prussian War, WWI, and WWII are actually all the same war fought in three acts.

'The Franco-German War 1870-1945'.

I disagree with Zbigniew in saying that Pearl Harbour was the key moment of WWII.  
It was certainly a key moment, as it brought the US into the war, and coming back tho the OP, as i've stated before, i suspect had it not occurred Churchill/Roosvelt would have tried to 'engineer' something similar.

If there is a key moment, i think its...well....actually, that's probably another question all together.   ;) :D



Actually, as Leon asked in the OP, assuming Pearl Harbour didn't happen, what other event would have brought the US into the war?

http://www.durhamwargames.co.uk/
http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/

"It is by tea alone i set my mind in motion.  It is by the juice of Typhoo my thoughs acquire speed the teeth acquire stains, the stains serve as a warning.  It is by tea alone i set my mind in motion."

"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - Gary Gygax
"Maybe emu trampling created the desert?" - FierceKitty

2012 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

"I have become inappropriately excited by the thought of a compendium of OOBs." FSN

Zbigniew

Pearl Harbour was important as it triggered US-Japan War, which released Stalin from guarding far east borders, which helped him winning war with Germany and drove half of Europe into enslavement.

This is what I claim in short words.

As for any other triggers for US war involvement I have no idea. I have always failed to understand Americans :)

Luddite

Quote from: Zbigniew on 23 December 2010, 07:55:41 PM

I have always failed to understand Americans :)


It's easy...they're just like us.  They love their children too...   >:<
http://www.durhamwargames.co.uk/
http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/

"It is by tea alone i set my mind in motion.  It is by the juice of Typhoo my thoughs acquire speed the teeth acquire stains, the stains serve as a warning.  It is by tea alone i set my mind in motion."

"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - Gary Gygax
"Maybe emu trampling created the desert?" - FierceKitty

2012 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

"I have become inappropriately excited by the thought of a compendium of OOBs." FSN

alnewhaven

Quote from: lentulus on 23 December 2010, 03:47:23 AM
I think a bit much, in this case.  On the other hand, if Roosevelt was acting in any other than long term US interests, he was not doing his job.  He was also (IIRC) less than a fan of European colonialism and not reflexively anti-communist so the post-war outcomes might have been different in interesting ways if he had held on a bit longer.

Which also poses the question of how the post war world would have looked if FDR had lived longer?  Read somewhere that the US attitude to Stalin changed quite significantly to Stalin under Truman.  Would FDR have allowed the European powers to regain their colonies?  The OSS were supplying / encouraging Ho Chi Minh until the French with UK support decided they wanted Indo China back.
"Though I Fly Through the Valley of Death I Shall Fear No Evil For I am at 80,000 Feet and Climbing."
-(Sign over the entrance to the SR-71 operating location Kadena, Japan).

Leveller Mutineer

This is a nice little can of worms opened up here.  It seems that even the direst movie can open up debate.  By dire, of course I mean little inaccuracies that bother anyone such as myself.  You know bits like 'est. 1953' on one of the buildings, no one smoking on a military base, Jap planes painted green so that audiences could differentiate the "good guys from the bad guys" (big red circle usually done that).  That sort of thing.

I'm just glad that on the 24th December 2006 we finally paid off the invoice the US gave us (at good rates, I admit).  :)

Leon

Quote from: Leveller Mutineer on 27 December 2010, 05:15:27 PM
You know bits like 'est. 1953' on one of the buildings

I noticed that as well!  And when the car they're in gets strafed on the runway, wouldn't that have torn the car to pieces, as opposed to a bit of cosmetic damage?
www.pendraken.co.uk - Now home to over 7000 products, including 4500 items for 10mm wargaming, plus MDF bases, Battlescale buildings, I-94 decals, Litko Gaming Aids, Militia Miniatures, Raiden Miniatures 1/285th aircraft, Red Vectors MDF products, Vallejo paints and much, much more!

Luddite

A single American pilot winning the Battle of Britain for us got me...    >:(
http://www.durhamwargames.co.uk/
http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/

"It is by tea alone i set my mind in motion.  It is by the juice of Typhoo my thoughs acquire speed the teeth acquire stains, the stains serve as a warning.  It is by tea alone i set my mind in motion."

"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - Gary Gygax
"Maybe emu trampling created the desert?" - FierceKitty

2012 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

"I have become inappropriately excited by the thought of a compendium of OOBs." FSN

Maenoferren

Quote from: Luddite on 27 December 2010, 06:46:03 PM
A single American pilot winning the Battle of Britain for us got me...    >:(
THAT AND TWO FIGHTER PILOTS FLYING TWIN ENGINED BOMBERS  :D
Sometimes I wonder - why is that frisbee geting bigger - and then it hits me!

Zbigniew

O yeah, "Pearl Harbour" and "U 571" films were total crap. I cant understand how could American war movies  fall so low from the times of "Platoon"?