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Author Topic: Close Assaults out of High Area Terrain (Woods)  (Read 1138 times)
T-Square
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« on: 26 June 2019, 03:52:44 AM »

We had an interesting problem occur in a game tonight. A German Infantry unit was in the woods about 4cm from the edge looking out.  A US Halftrack pulled up parallel to the edge of the woods about 2cm away.  There was about 6cm between the Infantry unit and the halftrack.

The German player wanted to assault the halftrack during the initiative phase.  However we decided this could not be done since the infantry unit had to stop at the edge of the woods.  (P. 10 High Area Terrain) (Question: Can the infantry unit even see the halftrack or is its vision restricted to 5cm?)

During the Command Phase the German HQ could not order an assault because the Infantry unit had to first move and stop at the edge of the woods.  However, because the halftrack was 2cm from the edge, the Infantry unit could not move within 3cm of the woods edge.  Thus the infantry unit could never assault the halftrack.  It seems logical that the infantry unit should be able to assault the halftrack without having to stop at the edge of the woods on the way.

What is the resolution to this issue?
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #1 on: 26 June 2019, 08:30:15 AM »

Hi Terry

I'll have a stab.

Visibility: Yes they can see each other.
(1) The infantry is not Concealed - as the enemy unit is within 10cm (p15)
(2) Max visibility through wooded HAT is 5cm (p14) - and the infantry unit is only 4cm inside the wood

There could be an interpretation that the rule on p14 reads as units in HAT can only see a max of 5cm total when looking out of the wood I.e. the infantry unit could not see the half-track Ö.Personally I don't think it works like this though

Close Assault :
I believe with the rules as written, the infantry unit could not assault the Halftrack in one action - as you say.
If wishing to allow it - You could simply permit the infantry to assault without stopping at the edge of the terrain (with a rule that over-rides requirement to stop at edge of HAT when Assaulting).

However - the infantry can assault the half-track in 2 actions as follows -

(1) Move up to the edge of the HAT by declaring a Close Assault ..using the p40 rule on close assault Contact that states "Units ignore the 5cm proximity rule during assaults, meaning a unit can move closer than 5cm to an enemy unit, even if it does not contact that unit." Doing this does not contrevene any of the Assault restrictions in the Assault section of p40.

(2) Then next action ...Close Assault again into contact with the enemy.

Messy and slow, but at least its possible.

Hope this helps
Adam
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In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Big Insect
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« Reply #2 on: 26 June 2019, 10:22:15 AM »

The Infantry can see through or out of the HAT 5cm - so can see the half-track (as they are only 4cm inside the wood @ 6cm they could not see through and out). I think we've discussed this at length on a previous thread?

The Infantry moves into the HAT with no penalty but must stop on the inside edge before exiting the HAT, so Adam is right, it will take 2 commanded moves to assault the half-track.
Or ... the half-track is within Initiative distance of the infantry unit. The Infantry can move to the edge of the wood as an Initiative action and then Assault as a commanded action, or better still shoot to suppress the half-track (hopefully) as an Initiative action* (as the half-track can be seen) and then use a commanded action to assault.
*but the half-track would get cover as the shooting is through the wood not out of it.

Cheers
Mark
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T-Square
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« Reply #3 on: 26 June 2019, 02:49:37 PM »

Page 33 on movement second paragraph states "but may not voluntarily move closer than 5cm to a visible enemy unit, unless making an assault."  So I don’t believe that during the initiative phase they can move to the edge of the HAT because that would place them within 5cm of the enemy and they are not assaulting.  (Only preparing to assault under a command later in the turn.)

So I’m assuming that this will take 2 assault orders, one to move to the edge of the woods (HAT) within 5cm of the unit being assaulted, and then one order to jump out of the woods and assault.  Both orders with -1 to the CV to assault.

Now, if the second assault order fails, does the unit have to fall back so it is 5cm away from the enemy unit?

The more I consider this one the more I’m thinking that it is an exception to the HAT rule.  The assaulting infantry unit charges forward, bayonets between their teeth, and stomps the hell out of the enemy.  Evil (Excuse me, that was my inner John Wayne coming out.  Wink)



BTW, Ain’t it interesting what niggling little things come out the more we play.
« Last Edit: 26 June 2019, 02:55:34 PM by T-Square » Logged
Big Insect
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« Reply #4 on: 26 June 2019, 05:09:59 PM »

The under 5cm prohibition does apply - you are correct.

The movement out of terrain restriction has been around almost since the dawn of BKC (I wasn't there and don't have a BKCI copy) but I suspect that these kind of oddities have occurred previously. This moving out of terrain restriction is there for a good reason though.  Personally I am not convinced that any Infantry would charge out of terrain like a wood into the open to attack even an enemy they can see, without doing some sort of recce to see what else is out there.

I'm not inclined to create a whole special rule for this, as the knock-on implications need to be considered very carefully.
I must admit, in all my BKC gaming I have not had anything like this happen & usually we do a lot of HAT combats.
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T-Square
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« Reply #5 on: 27 June 2019, 04:03:33 AM »

So under these conditions, no assault can be made. That was our conclusion during the game.

If I had thought of it I would have ordered the unit to move diagonally to the edge of the woods 5+cm away from the halftrack.  Then ordered the assault from there.  Serves me right.  Officers have Sergeants for a reason.  My order should have been, "Sergeant Shultz, take the squad and assault that halftrack.  You know what to do."

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Big Insect
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« Reply #6 on: 27 June 2019, 10:05:26 AM »

Yes, sounds like a plan
 Cheesy
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #7 on: 28 June 2019, 08:16:22 AM »

Terry

In the example provided - You can do the CA as 2 Assault actions described in my answer above.

Note -I believe units that are already within 5cm of an enemy unit are not required to move away to 5cm from that unit ...as the proximity rule (p33) only applies to restrictions on Movement.


Ö"..may not move voluntarily move closer than 5cm to a visible enemy unit, unless making an Assault."


Hope this helps
Adam
« Last Edit: 28 June 2019, 09:40:00 AM by AJ at the Bank » Logged

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T-Square
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« Reply #8 on: 28 June 2019, 08:33:27 PM »

AJ,

That first move to close than 5cm is technically not an assault.  Itís only a move which violates the 5cm rule.  Now, you might want to make a house rule to allow moving closer than 5cm using the assault penalty for the move.  This would allow the assault on the next move or allow the order to use a Panzerfaust on the next order.
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #9 on: 29 June 2019, 07:56:35 AM »

Hi Terry - I respectfully disagree.    Smiley

You are absolutely permitted to use an Assault in this way.

Imagine another scenario -

Defending infantry in a trench ...3cm in front of the trench is 1 cm thick wire.
How would the enemy close to within 5cm if not Assaulting?

The rules permit this by stating ...."..a unit can move closer than 5cm to an enemy unit, even if it does not contact that enemy unit."

This allows the enemy unit to Assault to the edge of the linear obstacle (wire) ...as the Assualt restrictions require base contact with a linear obstacle before assaulting across it....and then Assault again next action to close with the denfending infantry.


Welcome your thoughts
Adam

 
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In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
T-Square
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« Reply #10 on: 01 July 2019, 03:14:31 AM »

AJ

Page 40 paragraph 4 states:  "In both phases, a unit must be able to see the enemy unit, it must have sufficient movement available to end its move in base contact with that unit and it must be able to cross all intervening terrain."  In my example the assaulting unit is not able to cross the intervening terrain, thus it cannot make the assault, bayonets between their teeth or not.

In your example the wire 3cm in front of the trench holding the enemy unit effectively protects that unit from assault.  You will need to stand back and use direct and indirect fire to eliminate the enemy unit or drive it back from the wire so you can cross that wire.

I believe your statement that the rules allow you to move within 5cm is a mistaken interpretation of the the rules you quote.  I believe you are referring to the 3rd paragraph from the bottom of page 40.  Reading that paragraph in context means that the assaulting unit may pass an enemy unit near the target unit as long as the assaulting unit makes contact with the target enemy unit.  Thus the assaulting unit may end its assaulting move in contact with the target and within 5cm of any enemy unit flanking or in support of the assaulted enemy unit.  I believe that an additional example photo showing an assault move through a gap would clarify this section better.
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AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #11 on: 01 July 2019, 07:10:56 PM »

Thanks Terry - Understand completely.

As you rightly point out - this is a rule interpretation.

We've been reading it as the unit can cross intervening terrain in this example - as it's not impassable.

I think perhaps this is one for Mark to explain how its meant to work.

That said - im not sure if he is doing clarifications now - we may just have to wait a bit.

I thought he did say 2 assault actions would work in the example - per his message on 26th 10:22.....may be reading this wrong of course! Smiley


 
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Risaldar Singh
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« Reply #12 on: 01 July 2019, 10:36:43 PM »

This Catch-22 situation has been around for ages and was never really clarified. It really could do with a clear ruling: either units within 5cm of a movement-stopping feature can never be assaulted across that feature (meh) or the "no movement within 5cm except to assault" is waived in such cases to allow an assault over two actions (better).
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