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Author Topic: Tactical Doctrine & Fixed Formations  (Read 3554 times)
AJ at the Bank
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« Reply #15 on: 25 June 2019, 02:21:31 PM »

Thanks Mark

Yes - It sounds like it would be our preferred option.
However - we are stuck on how it works.

E.g. German 1944 with Flexible doctrine ....If playing FF (per write up on Optional Rule) - then sounds like units only take orders from their own formation HQ.
BTW - There is nothing in the FF rule to say that the CO can order units outside their own formation ..only that they can transfer a unit in their own formation to another formation.

Then on the Flexible doctrine table (p74) - says when using FF rule ....HQs can issue orders to units in other formations (without penalty)

Lastly- As written, the table doesnt allow COs to order other units in other formations (with or without penalty) .....this seems very odd. We suspect this is the same oversight as in BKCII...and HQs & COs have the same ability.

Thanks again
Adam

 
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Big Insect
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« Reply #16 on: 25 June 2019, 03:51:27 PM »

I think the issue is what is meant by a Fixed Formation and I will clarify that.

e.g.
                  CO
                    |----- 3 x mortars
__________________________________________
HQ1         HQ2     FAO                       FAC    Recce1
  |              |           |                           |
Recce2     A/C     3x off table guns      1x aircraft
3x Tanks         

So in the Battlegroup above:
HQ1 and the 3 Tanks and Recce1 are in one fixed formation - so the 3 x tanks can be ordered by HQ1
HQ2 and the A/C (armoured car) are in another fixed formation - so the A/C can be ordered by HQ2

The 2 HQ's, FAO, FAC and Recce1 are technically in a fixed formation, with the 3 mortars under the CO and the 3 off-table guns and 1 x aircraft

Recce2 can influence HQ1
Recce 1 can influence the CO, FAC & FAO
Neither HQs can order each others units under any circumstances
The CO can order the 3 mortars at no command penalty
The CO can order units in either of the HQs fixed formation if they have not been ordered previously, but with a penalty

You can even take this one step further by placing an FAO in a Fixed Formation with an HQ and add the off-table artillery associated specifically with that FAO within that Fixed Formation.
That means that another FAO (in another HQ's fixed formation) cannot order those off-table guns. However, an FAO within the CO's fixed formation can order these, but with a penalty.

It is a logical attempt to replicate command structures and chains of command and communication lines.

If Page 74 doesn't read correctly (& I will check once I have a set of rules in front of me) it can be corrected, but the way it is outlined above is the way it is intended to be played.

Many thanks
Mark
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Dr Dave
Guest
« Reply #17 on: 25 June 2019, 04:11:09 PM »

What you've put there Mark is how I visualise commands.

Then there is the doctrine.

  - Flexible - All HQs and the CO can order anyone - in essence this means that the fixed formation doesn't exist;
  - Normal - HQ's can order each others units but at a -1 penalty;
  - Rigid - HQs can only order their own units.

Simples  Cheesy
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T13A
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« Reply #18 on: 25 June 2019, 05:13:21 PM »

Hi All

I was just about to add my tuppence worth to this one but Dr Dave beat me to it!

For what its worth I do not think that the rules as written to do with Tactical Doctrine (page 74 of the rule book) and the 'optional' (downloadable) rules regarding Fixed Formations work together.

Using the Tactical Doctrine rules for instance a British HQ (44-45) with 'normal' doctine can issue orders to a unit from another formation but at a -1 penalty, whereas a German HQ (44-45) with 'flexible doctrine' can do the same but without any penalty, exactly as Dr Dave has stated. 

Using the Fixed Formations rule an HQ can only ever issue orders to units in his own formation (which of course contradicts the above).

A 'CO' could issue orders to any unit in any formation under his command regardless of the above (that's my reading anyway).

I must admit it is this kind of ambiguity that I was hoping BKC-IV would clear up.  Sad

Cheers Paul

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Big Insect
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« Reply #19 on: 25 June 2019, 10:55:53 PM »

Leaving aside my deliberate error - e.g. that Recce 1 is part of HQ1's Fixed Formation (it should be Recce2 of course). I will review these points and comment when I have a rules book in front of me.

However, there is an argument that there should be no correlation between Tac.Doc and Fixed Formation, and that the 2 are completely separate and not interdependent at all.

The -1 or +1 for Tac.Doc should be applied to the Co not the HQs. Which is more the intention of the rule. Fixed Formations are deliberately designed to restrict the flexibility of command.

Paul is correct in that the CO can in effect order any unit within the Battlegroup - as this (the whole Battlegroup) is the fixed formation he commands.
However, I have chosen to apply a penalty to him commanding troops that are within the fixed (sub) formations commanded by his HQ's as a games mechanism, to prevent a specific potential abuse.

I think the suggestion below is very acceptable, but if you want flexibility, do not play fixed formations - that is why they are an optional rule.  Smiley

Cheers
Mark
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Prophaniti
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« Reply #20 on: 25 June 2019, 11:15:28 PM »

This is an interesting thread.  Throughout my whole time playing v2 I always thought that the fixed formations were linear.  i.e. the CO's formation did not include subordinate formations in it, which made for some tricky situations with rigid command structures and also prevented the CO from ordering failed HQ units.  (Which I did think was a bit odd, even at the time.)
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sultanbev
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« Reply #21 on: 25 June 2019, 11:56:16 PM »

I think we're getting formations that you create before the battle mixed up with doctrine.

Flexible doctrine means to me you can cross attach platoons from different battalions beffore you start the game, but they stick in FF under that command.
Eg you might have a 1944 panzer regiment Kampfegruppe with a CO, a Panzer Bttn HQ and a Panzer Grenadier Bttn HQ.

The Panzer battalion normally has 9 tank models, a SP flak gun model, and perhaps an engineer stand in Sdkfz 251/7
The Pz Grenadier bttn has roughly 9 infantry stands, 1x 81mm mortar stand, 1x PAK40 stand, 1x 75mm IG18 lets say.
The CO has a battery of 15cm Grilles, an engineer company of 3 engineer stands with flamethrowers, in trucks, and a couple of Flakpanzer 38t, lets say.

Now, under Flexible doctrine, you could move say 3 of the tanks to the PzGr HQ, 3 of the infnatry stands to the Panzer HQ, detach 1 panzer stand to the CO as personal HQ guard, donate the Grille from the CO to the panzergrenadier HQ, and even move the PAK40 to the Panzer HQ. You get two mixed combat battalions that way and a very small HQ kampfegruppe, probably as battle reserve.

Under the FF rule, once you've created these "mixed" battalions, they are only commandable by their immediate HQ, and perhaps, the CO at a minus. If you're not using FF rule, then it's a bit more fluid, but probably less realistic.

The same force under normal doctrine, couldn't be mixed like that. So all the tanks would be commanded by the tank HQ, all the infantry by  the infantry HQ. Under FF then, you're either commanding all tanks or all infantry (and their assocaited battalion assets). If you're not using FF, then in effect a HQ can reqeust help from a neighbouring battalion, but that is all it is, not an order, hence the proposed minus on the command roll. The CO could command any of them, but if I get it right, also at a minus.

And so on. If that helps....

Mark
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #22 on: 26 June 2019, 07:55:44 AM »

The -1 or +1 for Tac.Doc should be applied to the Co not the HQs.

Sorry Mark, but which +/- 1 are you referring to here. Are you saying that a rigid doc HQ canít use +1 for all doing the same thing, or +1 from a recce bonus? It reads like the former...

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Big Insect
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« Reply #23 on: 26 June 2019, 10:30:11 AM »

No no no Dave - now you are mixing up other rules mechanisms here

As Mark (Sultanbey) has so elegantly put it, think of it that the CO can command anybody but outside of his immediate reports will gain a penalty for doing so.
HQ's can only order their own direct reports.

If you put Recce within a FF under an HQ (which you can do) the Recce can only give a command bonus to that HQ and any other officers (FAO or FAC) that are also (nominally) included within his command.

There appears to be an error in the association between FF and Tac.Doc. that I will investigate and reply upon once I can access my rules book later in the week.

Cheers
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Big Insect
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« Reply #24 on: 26 June 2019, 10:34:51 AM »

This is an interesting thread.  Throughout my whole time playing v2 I always thought that the fixed formations were linear.  i.e. the CO's formation did not include subordinate formations in it, which made for some tricky situations with rigid command structures and also prevented the CO from ordering failed HQ units.  (Which I did think was a bit odd, even at the time.)

I am 100% with you here Prophaniti
Which is why I wanted it changed/clarified - it seemed completely illogical that a CO could not override his HQ's.
It also then seemed important that if the formation was better trained (more flexible) it would react to this command override more favorably than a less well trained or rigid formation (hence the +/- for the Tac.Docs). It just appears their may be an error in the cross-association of the Tac.Docs with the FF optional wording.
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fred.
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« Reply #25 on: 26 June 2019, 12:47:56 PM »

Leon, are you able to send Mark (Big insect)  a PDF version of the rules, it might help with easier access to what is written in the rules, vs what is intended, Especially if he is away from his physical rulebook a lot.

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Big Insect
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« Reply #26 on: 26 June 2019, 05:12:16 PM »

I have a PDF copy fred - I am just not allowed to access it on my work laptop  Sad

So this will have to wait, but TBF I think I am pretty clear that what i am saying is/was my intention with all this.

Thanks for the thought though  Smiley
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kustenjaeger
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« Reply #27 on: 26 June 2019, 05:20:47 PM »

I have a PDF copy fred - I am just not allowed to access it on my work laptop  Sad

So this will have to wait, but TBF I think I am pretty clear that what i am saying is/was my intention with all this.

Thanks for the thought though  Smiley

Thatís why I bring my iPad to the office 🙂.

Edward
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Big Insect
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« Reply #28 on: 27 June 2019, 05:35:47 PM »

Right .... I have just returned home and before I even took my coat off or had a pee ("too much information") I have checked P74, as it is clearly a burning issue.

And the answer is ....

That the references to HQ in the table, should read CO.
This will be corrected in the errata and I will add a clarification note to explain what a fixed formation is, but in the OPTIONAL RULES PDF on Fixed Formations.

Off to take of coat, have a pee, change out of suit, kiss the wife and have a cup of tea!  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Mark
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Dr Dave
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« Reply #29 on: 27 June 2019, 08:02:34 PM »

All done? That was too much information  Embarrassed

And the answer is ....

That the references to HQ in the table, should read CO.

Not all of mentions of HQ change to CO surely?
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